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Who Buried Jesus - Derail

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  • #16
    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    Your failure to acknowledge Paul's claims that "Christ lives" "he recovered" "he was raised" mean what they say doesn't hold water.
    There are different ways to interpret what Paul says other than the ultra literal "his body left a tomb behind."

    "In the kerygmatic formulas, the preferred expression is that Christ "was raised" (from the dead). The slightly narrative, reportorial nature of these expressions corresponds exactly to the way in which Christ's death or crucifixion was imagined. The function of the motif is the same as the affirmations of vindication in the martyrologies. To be raised means to have overcome, been vindicated, granted divine reward, status and destiny in spite of death......Because the notion was mythic, "raised from the dead" meant the same thing as "vindicated," "exalted," "ascended," "enthroned," and could be elaborated by calling upon other myths of cosmic destiny (Wisdom, Son of God) or cultic sovereignty and presence (Lord)." - Burton Mack, A Myth of Innocence: Mark and Christian Origins, pgs. 112-113. https://books.google.com/books?id=fN...page&q&f=false

    "Some scholars have argued that the empty tomb is implied by the information ‘he was buried’ (1 Cor. 15.4). For example, Craig comments that ‘in saying that Jesus died – was buried – was raised – appeared, one automatically implies that an empty grave has been left behind.’ This reflects Craig’s own beliefs rather than those of Paul and other Second Temple Jews, and his supporting arguments are extraordinarily weak. For example, he tries to use the literal meaning of Paul’s Greek word egēgertai (1 Cor. 15.4), which is usually translated into English with a past tense, ‘was raised’, and which is a perfect tense which effectively means that Jesus was raised – a single event ‘on the third day’ – and that he is still raised, so a present state, not a mere past event. Craig argues that, like the other major New Testament word for rising from the dead (anistanai), egeirein means ‘awaken’ from sleep....All this involves taking language very literally at a time when beliefs were not sufficiently fixed for us to do so. Like Jesus’ own Aramaic term qum, these words could be used analogically to the degree that any author found fruitful to describe an incomprehensible act of God. Craig’s arguments illustrate the extent to which he thinks logically only within his ideological convictions, and their function is to remove one of the most important pieces of evidence in the primary sources: neither the earliest kerygmatic formulation, nor Paul himself, mentions the empty tomb." - Maurice Casey, Jesus of Nazareth, pg. 458-459 https://books.google.com/books?id=lX...page&q&f=false

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    • #17
      Originally posted by RhinestoneCowboy View Post
      Looking forward to your refutation. http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post449602
      What part of "I'm not arguing this (yet again) here" do you not understand?
      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
      sigpic
      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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      • #18
        Originally posted by RhinestoneCowboy View Post
        I know they don't agree. It's because it refutes their orthodox view. No surprise there!
        And because you're completely wrong. But don't let facts get in the way.
        "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

        "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

        My Personal Blog

        My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

        Quill Sword

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        • #19
          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
          What part of "I'm not arguing this (yet again) here" do you not understand?

          The same part that says demonstrating an argument is fallacious IS a refutation.
          "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

          "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

          My Personal Blog

          My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

          Quill Sword

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          • #20
            Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
            What part of "I'm not arguing this (yet again) here" do you not understand?
            I understand that you're dodging it just like everyone else around here...

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            • #21
              Originally posted by RhinestoneCowboy View Post
              I understand that you're dodging it just like everyone else around here...
              no. we just see through your transparent attempts to drag people into discussing your pet topic and won't play along. Your idea is well, stupid, and doesn't even deserve a rebuttal. It is there for anyone to see and reject without needing anyone to defeat it. It defeats itself.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                no. we just see through your transparent attempts to drag people into discussing your pet topic and won't play along. Your idea is well, stupid, and doesn't even deserve a rebuttal. It is there for anyone to see and reject without needing anyone to defeat it. It defeats itself.
                My idea is stupid? Wow, quite an insightful refutation you got there...

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by RhinestoneCowboy View Post
                  My idea is stupid? Wow, quite an insightful refutation you got there...
                  Truth does not have to be complicated.
                  Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                  Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                  sigpic
                  I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                    No it wasn't. Jesus had a physical body.
                    Paul refers to a body, but not a fleshly body nor a ghost. He says it will be a “spiritual body", meaning an immortal body, or incorruptible body (15:53—54). I.e. a different kind of body!

                    He even said he was not a ghost to the apostles when he came back and ate food with them and had thomas touch his wounds. A resurrection without a body is an oxymoron.
                    Unlike Paul, the gospels are much later, non-eyewitness accounts and embellished!

                    The whole argument is based upon the fact that the later gospel accounts do not tally with the early Pauline account whereby the early experiences of Jesus were of a spiritual nature similar to what Christians of today claim to experience. They were not the fanciful accounts such as you quote above from John...dating 70+ years after Jesus’ death.
                    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                      Paul refers to a body, but not a fleshly body nor a ghost. He says it will be a “spiritual body", meaning an immortal body, or incorruptible body (15:53—54). I.e. a different kind of body!
                      Paul did not deny that the resurrection body was a physical body of flesh. But affirmed that is a body without blood (1 Corinthians 15:50). One not of flesh and blood.
                      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                        Paul refers to a body, but not a fleshly body nor a ghost. He says it will be a “spiritual body", meaning an immortal body, or incorruptible body (15:53—54). I.e. a different kind of body!

                        Unlike Paul, the gospels are much later, non-eyewitness accounts and embellished!
                        You need to throw in a few more exclamation points. They're so persuasive!
                        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                        sigpic
                        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                          Truth does not have to be complicated.
                          The truth is that Paul says Jesus was experienced spiritually i.e. through visions and revelations. If that's true and the "appearances" in 1 Cor 15:5-8 were mere
                          "visions" then the orthodox version of Christianity is false.

                          You're right. It's not that complicated.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by RhinestoneCowboy View Post
                            The truth is that Paul says Jesus was experienced spiritually i.e. through visions and revelations. If that's true and the "appearances" in 1 Cor 15:5-8 were mere
                            "visions" then the orthodox version of Christianity is false.

                            You're right. It's not that complicated.
                            Derp. As if assuming that pretty much everyone involved in early Christianity lied with abandon while pretending to uphold the truth isn't complicated. Your hypothesis requires an insane amount of cherry-picking and reinterpretation of the text. It's hilarious that you pretend it isn't complicated.
                            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                            sigpic
                            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by RhinestoneCowboy View Post
                              Unfortunately, for Paul, the earliest and only firsthand source, the "body" was a "spiritual one" in heaven experienced through visions/revelations. It was not a resurrected human body on earth. This renders the later developed orthodox version of Christianity false.
                              Repeating a falsehood doesn't make it true, no matter how many times you do it. Paul used the word "resurrection" (anastasis) at least four times in 1 Cor 15. He used this as a synonym for "raised" (egeiro). He was speaking of a physical, bodily resurrection which had an added spiritual dimension to it.
                              "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Kbertsche View Post
                                Repeating a falsehood doesn't make it true, no matter how many times you do it. Paul used the word "resurrection" (anastasis) at least four times in 1 Cor 15. He used this as a synonym for "raised" (egeiro). He was speaking of a physical, bodily resurrection which had an added spiritual dimension to it.
                                he thinks that nobody noticed that Paul was only talking about ghosts until he came along. 2000 years of ignorance solved by his insight.

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