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Who Buried Jesus - Derail

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  • #31
    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    Derp. As if assuming that pretty much everyone involved in early Christianity lied with abandon while pretending to uphold the truth isn't complicated. Your hypothesis requires an insane amount of cherry-picking and reinterpretation of the text. It's hilarious that you pretend it isn't complicated.
    Your understanding of early Christianity is extremely naive. They wouldn't have thought of these as "lies." They were thought of and interpreted as "spiritual truths" and the authors conveyed their message through common literary tropes readily available in Jewish and Greco-Roman folklore. The evangelists weren't concerned with reporting actual history:

    "To provide a good overview of the majority opinion about the Gospels, the Oxford Annotated Bible (a compilation of multiple scholars summarizing dominant scholarly trends for the last 150 years) states (pg. 1744):"

    "Neither the evangelists nor their first readers engaged in historical analysis. Their aim was to confirm Christian faith (Lk. 1.4; Jn. 20.31). Scholars generally agree that the Gospels were written forty to sixty years after the death of Jesus. They thus do not present eyewitness or contemporary accounts of Jesus’ life and teachings." https://celsus.blog/2013/12/17/why-s...f-the-gospels/

    I disagree with your assertion that I'm "cherry picking." I'm just reading the accounts in order, showing the inconsistencies and obvious legendary growth. All of my interpretations are at least as probable as their negations if not more so. My hypothesis is plausible, has great explanatory scope, explanatory power, is not ad hoc, is simple, and is accord with wide held beliefs regarding other literature which demonstrates legendary growth.
    Last edited by RhinestoneCowboy; 06-29-2017, 01:28 PM.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Kbertsche View Post
      Repeating a falsehood doesn't make it true, no matter how many times you do it. Paul used the word "resurrection" (anastasis) at least four times in 1 Cor 15. He used this as a synonym for "raised" (egeiro). He was speaking of a physical, bodily resurrection which had an added spiritual dimension to it.
      First of all, a "resurrection" didn't necessarily mean that your corpse literally left a grave behind. Views were much more diverse than that. Secondly, Paul means "raised" to heaven. If you disagree then show me where he has the Risen Jesus on earth or being experienced physically like the gospels tell us.

      See the 3 objections to your anastasis reference here on page 26: https://books.google.com/books?id=z-...page&q&f=false

      As for "raised' (egeiro):

      "In the kerygmatic formulas, the preferred expression is that Christ "was raised" (from the dead). The slightly narrative, reportorial nature of these expressions corresponds exactly to the way in which Christ's death or crucifixion was imagined. The function of the motif is the same as the affirmations of vindication in the martyrologies. To be raised means to have overcome, been vindicated, granted divine reward, status and destiny in spite of death......Because the notion was mythic, "raised from the dead" meant the same thing as "vindicated," "exalted," "ascended," "enthroned," and could be elaborated by calling upon other myths of cosmic destiny (Wisdom, Son of God) or cultic sovereignty and presence (Lord)." - Burton Mack, A Myth of Innocence: Mark and Christian Origins, pgs. 112-113. https://books.google.com/books?id=fN...page&q&f=false

      "Some scholars have argued that the empty tomb is implied by the information ‘he was buried’ (1 Cor. 15.4). For example, Craig comments that ‘in saying that Jesus died – was buried – was raised – appeared, one automatically implies that an empty grave has been left behind.’ This reflects Craig’s own beliefs rather than those of Paul and other Second Temple Jews, and his supporting arguments are extraordinarily weak. For example, he tries to use the literal meaning of Paul’s Greek word egēgertai (1 Cor. 15.4), which is usually translated into English with a past tense, ‘was raised’, and which is a perfect tense which effectively means that Jesus was raised – a single event ‘on the third day’ – and that he is still raised, so a present state, not a mere past event. Craig argues that, like the other major New Testament word for rising from the dead (anistanai), egeirein means ‘awaken’ from sleep....All this involves taking language very literally at a time when beliefs were not sufficiently fixed for us to do so. Like Jesus’ own Aramaic term qum, these words could be used analogically to the degree that any author found fruitful to describe an incomprehensible act of God. Craig’s arguments illustrate the extent to which he thinks logically only within his ideological convictions, and their function is to remove one of the most important pieces of evidence in the primary sources: neither the earliest kerygmatic formulation, nor Paul himself, mentions the empty tomb." - Maurice Casey, Jesus of Nazareth, pg. 458-459 https://books.google.com/books?id=lX...page&q&f=false
      Last edited by RhinestoneCowboy; 06-29-2017, 01:42 PM.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        he thinks that nobody noticed that Paul was only talking about ghosts until he came along. 2000 years of ignorance solved by his insight.
        As obvious from the interactions here, it's hard to get people to let go of 2,000 year old dogma.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by RhinestoneCowboy View Post
          As obvious from the interactions here, it's hard to get people to let go of 2,000 year old dogma.
          because your idea is unconvincing. We debated it previously over several hundred pages in several threads. At no time would you even acknowledge any error on your part despite being shown how wrong you are over and over. Well, you can't argue with crazy. That is why IF you keep insisting on trying to start it up again, you will most likely be moderated. Don't go around trying to drag various threads off topic to your pet topic like you are doing here. And in the "good arguments for Atheism" thread. This thread isn't about the resurrection, or Paul.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
            Derp. As if assuming that pretty much everyone involved in early Christianity lied with abandon while pretending to uphold the truth isn't complicated. Your hypothesis requires an insane amount of cherry-picking and reinterpretation of the text. It's hilarious that you pretend it isn't complicated.
            It’s quite straight forward not “complicated” at all. The earliest material has the post-mortem Jesus appearing in the form of a vision. We don’t know if the tomb was empty and we don’t know if Jesus was physically seen by his followers or seen in a more spiritual form as per Paul’s Damascene vision.

            OTOH the material written decades later by non-eyewitnesses who had heard stories in circulation show a different Jesus, namely one with a fleshly body with wounds that can be felt and who could eat fish. Clearly the stories grew with the telling over the decades.
            “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
              There is less evidence for the hypothesis that the gospels were written by non-eyewitnesses, or doesn't include eyewitness testimony and only includes stories and anecdotes than there is for the opposite hypothesis.
              The eviodence they were written by eye witnesses to the events in Jerusalem around the crucifixion and supposed resurrection is extremely thin. Papias says Matthew wrote wrote something in Hebrew, but scholars mostly believe what we call the Gospel of Matthew was originally in Greek, not Hebrew, so is a different work. Mark and Luke were not witnesses. What is the evidence John was the author of the gospel that bears his name?

              Even if you widen the field to claim the gospels include eyewitness testimony, I would still question what that evidence is, and more importantly, what bits of the gospel?
              My Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                It’s quite straight forward not “complicated” at all. The earliest material has the post-mortem Jesus appearing in the form of a vision. We don’t know if the tomb was empty and we don’t know if Jesus was physically seen by his followers or seen in a more spiritual form as per Paul’s Damascene vision.

                OTOH the material written decades later by non-eyewitnesses who had heard stories in circulation show a different Jesus, namely one with a fleshly body with wounds that can be felt and who could eat fish. Clearly the stories grew with the telling over the decades.
                Luke is the sole writer of Saul and his companions experience on the Damascus road also reported Jesus appeared physically in flesh and bone (24:39) to His disciples.
                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                  It’s quite straight forward not “complicated” at all. The earliest material has the post-mortem Jesus appearing in the form of a vision. We don’t know if the tomb was empty and we don’t know if Jesus was physically seen by his followers or seen in a more spiritual form as per Paul’s Damascene vision.

                  OTOH the material written decades later by non-eyewitnesses who had heard stories in circulation show a different Jesus, namely one with a fleshly body with wounds that can be felt and who could eat fish. Clearly the stories grew with the telling over the decades.
                  When the guy who ostensibly started it was rather adamant in one of his earliest letters (namely Galatians, which isn't disputed) that if anyone came up with something different than what they'd already heard, they should be rejected? Lolno.
                  Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                  Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                  sigpic
                  I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                    When the guy who ostensibly started it was rather adamant in one of his earliest letters (namely Galatians, which isn't disputed) that if anyone came up with something different than what they'd already heard, they should be rejected? Lolno.
                    The gospels were written later for different audiences in different countries. They had no way nor did they care to fact check against Paul's preaching.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by RhinestoneCowboy View Post
                      The gospels were written later for different audiences in different countries. They had no way nor did they care to fact check against Paul's preaching.
                      This is as you suppose. But you do not know that.
                      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by RhinestoneCowboy View Post
                        The gospels were written later for different audiences in different countries. They had no way nor did they care to fact check against Paul's preaching.
                        You're a hoot.
                        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                        sigpic
                        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                          You're a hoot.
                          At least FF has a personality unlike RC...
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                            When the guy who ostensibly started it was rather adamant in one of his earliest letters (namely Galatians, which isn't disputed) that if anyone came up with something different than what they'd already heard, they should be rejected? Lolno.
                            What the gospels represent are an evolved, embellished version of the Jesus story which bears little resemblance to the Pauline account. As he said in the “undisputed” letter to the Galatians: “I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.”
                            Last edited by Tassman; 06-30-2017, 11:13 PM.
                            “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by seer View Post
                              At least FF has a personality unlike RC...
                              How very Trumpian. It's always the personal mockery with you lot isn't it.
                              “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                                What the gospels represent are an evolved, embellished version of the Jesus story which bears little resemblance to the Pauline account. As he said in the “undisputed” letter to the Galatians: “I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.”
                                You opinion is duly noted. It's not as if you have the wherewithal to support it; you're doing no more than regurgitating RhinestoneCowboy.
                                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                                sigpic
                                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                                Comment

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