Can Mormons have a female Prophet? President?

[jo7241974]

God does give us different talents Jo. Why would you think otherwise? Do you deny that God creates our bodies? Our bodies are not all the same, are they? Some people have greater strength, or agility, or dexterity, or better eye sight, and so on. That is all because God created us that way. So why would you have a problem with God giving each of us different talents? Especially since many times our talents are tied directly to our physical body. I can't play basketball or make a jump shot like an NBA player, and that is because God didn't make me tall, or physically agile.

Hi Sparko!

You must have overlooked this part of my post (no need for you to apologize for your oversight and continuing snarky remarks):

He adds upon or takes away gifts He gives us in the flesh.

The gifts/talents He gives us in our bodies of flesh are directly related to what He knows about us in our pre-mortal existence. This also helps make sense out of what is perceived by some IN THE FLESH as some type of preferential treatment. However, with a more complete understanding that He truly did know us before He sent us to the earth, the gifts and talents are not preferential; nor are the bodies we receive, the circumstances of our birth, or the time we are sent to the Earth. God is NOT a respector of persons. Instead, gifts/talents are bestowed upon us in accordance with what we need in order to help us learn what we need to learn from our experience in the flesh. If we do well, then we are rewarded. If we don't do well, He will go so far as to take away those gifts/talents. When we leave this earthly estate, our spirits take with us what we have learned, what has been added upon. Likewise, whatever was taken away from us, is not returned to our spirits. When we return to the spiritual realm, God continues this same process of adding to or taking away spiritual gifts in accordance with our choices. As Frank mentioned, what we experience here in the physical world, is a shadow (or pattern) of what goes on in the spirit world.

Love,

jo

[franktalk]

There are three levels of abilities or handicaps. In the flesh we have many areas like beauty or health that may be only associated with the flesh. But apparently how we look stays with us but I have no idea what the eye of the beholder is in the afterlife. Some physical problems are chosen by God for us. I am sure He has His reasons. Then we have some basic personality that comes from our life before coming here. The third area deals with gifts that we receive from the Father. Each of us is a combination of these. Therefore the many things said about our gifts and abilities fall into these three areas.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

This one is a possible

Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

[Cow Poke]

There are three levels of abilities or handicaps. In the flesh we have many areas like beauty or health that may be only associated with the flesh. But apparently how we look stays with us but I have no idea what the eye of the beholder is in the afterlife. Some physical problems are chosen by God for us. I am sure He has His reasons. Then we have some basic personality that comes from our life before coming here. The third area deals with gifts that we receive from the Father. Each of us is a combination of these. Therefore the many things said about our gifts and abilities fall into these three areas.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

This one is a possible

Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Now that we have had the "tongues", can we have the interpretation?

[Sparko]

Hi Sparko!

You must have overlooked this part of my post (no need for you to apologize for your oversight and continuing snarky remarks):

He adds upon or takes away gifts He gives us in the flesh.

The gifts/talents He gives us in our bodies of flesh are directly related to what He knows about us in our pre-mortal existence. This also helps make sense out of what is perceived by some IN THE FLESH as some type of preferential treatment. However, with a more complete understanding that He truly did know us before He sent us to the earth, the gifts and talents are not preferential; nor are the bodies we receive, the circumstances of our birth, or the time we are sent to the Earth. God is NOT a respector of persons. Instead, gifts/talents are bestowed upon us in accordance with what we need in order to help us learn what we need to learn from our experience in the flesh. If we do well, then we are rewarded. If we don't do well, He will go so far as to take away those gifts/talents. When we leave this earthly estate, our spirits take with us what we have learned, what has been added upon. Likewise, whatever was taken away from us, is not returned to our spirits. When we return to the spiritual realm, God continues this same process of adding to or taking away spiritual gifts in accordance with our choices. As Frank mentioned, what we experience here in the physical world, is a shadow (or pattern) of what goes on in the spirit world.

Love,

jo

No JO, I didn't miss that. I specifically addressed that.

you seem to think that if God gives us talents in our 'premortal' existence, that means that he is playing favorites and is not being fair, yet you have no problem with him giving us different bodies and talents in our 'flesh' and don't consider THAT to be unfair.

double standard? or just blind?

and still you didn't address the part where the LDS teaches that we are GIVEN TALENTS by God in our premortal existence that we bring with us.

“Chapter 34: Developing Our Talents,” Gospel Principles, 218
We all have special talents and abilities given to us by our Heavenly Father. When we were born, we brought these talents and abilities with us "

Did you catch that? talents GIVEN to us by Heavenly Father which we THEN bring to earth, not get to earth and then get talents. The talents are given BEFORE we are born.

For someone who keeps accusing me of not answering questions, you sure are good at ignoring important parts of someone's posts, jo.

[franktalk]

Now that we have had the "tongues", can we have the interpretation?

For someone who talks a lot about scripture this is an odd request.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Before God made the earth He had already chosen those who He would go out of His way to bring to Him. Why would He do so is the big question. If indeed all spirits are equal then His choice seems arbitrary. God is not arbitrary. If the sorting was done based on prior knowledge then how did God obtain the prior knowledge? He knew us already before He made the earth. He knew us and based on that prior knowledge knew who already loved God. To love God is a choice. But the love of God transcends the ages. Just as our love of God will carry through death and resurrection it has already carried through our birth in the flesh. This is why some seek the way they do and others fall away and seek the world. The motivation to seek God is love. This is described in 1 john pretty well. Here is the path in my own words.

1. We love God - When one recognizes that there is a God and forms a view of our place verses God's place one can start to love God for who He is.
2. We understand that it is God that holds the power for everything. Everything we see and touch came into being as a result of God's work.
3. We trust God - With a mixture of fear for the power of God and the love of God for allowing us this life in the flesh we trust that He has our best interest at heart. This is an extension of the love of God. Blind trust that He who makes the universe and sets the laws loves us and wishes us the best life possible. But we must know Him well enough to know that what He desires is not for the world but for us as a spirit. This is separate from the world. We must see that God is focused on our spirit and not the world. We may not even know what a spirit is at this point.
4. We cast off the world - So far things have been easy and most get to stage 3. But this one is not easy. You must embrace that this world is but a temporary existence for our spirit to learn. You must cut the ties that bind with the world. Your own body is of the world and is not you. It is a shell and nothing more. You feel lost and not attached to anything. You wonder why am I here. You lose your footing in the world, it becomes distant, it appears as an illusion. A fog that surrounds you and you see it as distant. You stop your emotional attachment to the world but you start to see others as spirits. You separate out what you see from what is actually there. Everything around you has been placed there by God so that you can enjoy it or as a test for you. Evil and good get divided sharply. The spiritual discernment which you hear about is so near. The world stands between you and spiritual discernment. You must remove the world before the spirit will talk with you. The spirit talks to spirit. The spirit does not talk to the world. Remove the world and the door opens. The door was always opened but the world stood in the way. The ideas of men lose their hold on you. The things that most men hold as truth become just ideas and nothing more. What you thought you knew becomes wrong or just words of men. If this does not happen then you have not cast off the world. Those who say that they can do both, hold the truth of man, and hold the truth of God are fools.
5. The world will hate you - The world is not your friend and has never been your friend. If you embraced the world it gave you treats to keep you. But when the world knows you have cast it off you become a target. So get ready. With spiritual discernment comes spiritual warfare. When some get a taste of this they run back to the world. You must have spiritual strength. I ask for strength daily and I need it. Some get to this point and fear overwhelms them as they even think of casting off the world. Satan and his workers will know what you are doing. Things will happen that don't make sense. In time spiritual discernment will sort out all of the confusion but some will run back to what is solid and what is familiar.
6. Scripture opens - When your eyes are opened by the spirit you will see more, hear more, and feel more.

I can not explain this path to give you understanding. You must live this path.

Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

This is just more of the same.

[Cow Poke]

For someone who talks a lot about scripture this is an odd request.

It was, in a way, sort of a joke. But you really do ramble on sometimes, and it LOOKS like you're typing just to type.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

You are going from an ASSUMPTION that this "pre-existence" stuff is true, then you force Scripture to fit your view.l

Before God made the earth He had already chosen those who He would go out of His way to bring to Him. Why would He do so is the big question. If indeed all spirits are equal then His choice seems arbitrary. God is not arbitrary. If the sorting was done based on prior knowledge then how did God obtain the prior knowledge? He knew us already before He made the earth. He knew us and based on that prior knowledge knew who already loved God. To love God is a choice. But the love of God transcends the ages. Just as our love of God will carry through death and resurrection it has already carried through our birth in the flesh. This is why some seek the way they do and others fall away and seek the world. The motivation to seek God is love. This is described in 1 john pretty well. Here is the path in my own words.

1. We love God - When one recognizes that there is a God and forms a view of our place verses God's place one can start to love God for who He is.
2. We understand that it is God that holds the power for everything. Everything we see and touch came into being as a result of God's work.
3. We trust God - With a mixture of fear for the power of God and the love of God for allowing us this life in the flesh we trust that He has our best interest at heart. This is an extension of the love of God. Blind trust that He who makes the universe and sets the laws loves us and wishes us the best life possible. But we must know Him well enough to know that what He desires is not for the world but for us as a spirit. This is separate from the world. We must see that God is focused on our spirit and not the world. We may not even know what a spirit is at this point.
4. We cast off the world - So far things have been easy and most get to stage 3. But this one is not easy. You must embrace that this world is but a temporary existence for our spirit to learn. You must cut the ties that bind with the world. Your own body is of the world and is not you. It is a shell and nothing more. You feel lost and not attached to anything. You wonder why am I here. You lose your footing in the world, it becomes distant, it appears as an illusion. A fog that surrounds you and you see it as distant. You stop your emotional attachment to the world but you start to see others as spirits. You separate out what you see from what is actually there. Everything around you has been placed there by God so that you can enjoy it or as a test for you. Evil and good get divided sharply. The spiritual discernment which you hear about is so near. The world stands between you and spiritual discernment. You must remove the world before the spirit will talk with you. The spirit talks to spirit. The spirit does not talk to the world. Remove the world and the door opens. The door was always opened but the world stood in the way. The ideas of men lose their hold on you. The things that most men hold as truth become just ideas and nothing more. What you thought you knew becomes wrong or just words of men. If this does not happen then you have not cast off the world. Those who say that they can do both, hold the truth of man, and hold the truth of God are fools.
5. The world will hate you - The world is not your friend and has never been your friend. If you embraced the world it gave you treats to keep you. But when the world knows you have cast it off you become a target. So get ready. With spiritual discernment comes spiritual warfare. When some get a taste of this they run back to the world. You must have spiritual strength. I ask for strength daily and I need it. Some get to this point and fear overwhelms them as they even think of casting off the world. Satan and his workers will know what you are doing. Things will happen that don't make sense. In time spiritual discernment will sort out all of the confusion but some will run back to what is solid and what is familiar.
6. Scripture opens - When your eyes are opened by the spirit you will see more, hear more, and feel more.

I can not explain this path to give you understanding. You must live this path.

Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

This is just more of the same.

Frank,
You seem to make pronouncements, then support them with "I don't know", then add Scriptute TOTALLY out of context. Then you seem to ramble on incoherently. In BIG blocks of run-on text.

[Sparko]

For someone who talks a lot about scripture this is an odd request.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Before God made the earth He had already chosen those who He would go out of His way to bring to Him. Why would He do so is the big question. If indeed all spirits are equal then His choice seems arbitrary. God is not arbitrary. If the sorting was done based on prior knowledge then how did God obtain the prior knowledge? He knew us already before He made the earth. He knew us and based on that prior knowledge knew who already loved God..

er, Frank...

If God created us, body and spirit at conception, then God did not need to "obtain the prior knowledge" - He just made us the way he wanted to make us, with the talents he wanted to give us, and placed us in the place and time he wanted us to exist in.

It's pretty simple.

[jo7241974]

No JO, I didn't miss that. I specifically addressed that.

you seem to think that if God gives us talents in our 'premortal' existence, that means that he is playing favorites and is not being fair, yet you have no problem with him giving us different bodies and talents in our 'flesh' and don't consider THAT to be unfair.

double standard? or just blind?

and still you didn't address the part where the LDS teaches that we are GIVEN TALENTS by God in our premortal existence that we bring with us.

“Chapter 34: Developing Our Talents,” Gospel Principles, 218
We all have special talents and abilities given to us by our Heavenly Father. When we were born, we brought these talents and abilities with us "

Did you catch that? talents GIVEN to us by Heavenly Father which we THEN bring to earth, not get to earth and then get talents. The talents are given BEFORE we are born.

For someone who keeps accusing me of not answering questions, you sure are good at ignoring important parts of someone's posts, jo.

No Sparko:

This is what I said to you:

Go back and read what Jeff said in response to Frank.

This is what Jeff said which I was talking about:

Our firstborn was a prodigy before he turned one year old. He was born with those talents--he brought them with him from someplace else. They certainly weren't abilities he learned from his environment at such a young age.

Then I said to you:

God continues this same process of adding to or taking away spiritual gifts in accordance with our choices. As Frank mentioned, what we experience here in the physical world, is a shadow (or pattern) of what goes on in the spirit world.

All of my other dissertation was to explain how God decides what gifts/talents He will give to us in accordance to the choices we have made. They also present how it is that we all have different gifts/talents and manages to keep God from being a respector of persons. To be perfectly clear, He does not create us with gifts and talents in the spirit world, and to repeat what I have already said: Our Intelligence pre-disposes us with unique traits which, as spirits, are then made manifest. Through the choices we make as spirits, God gets to know us and does everything He can in order for us to progress. This happens in both the spirit world and in the flesh. By referring you to what Jeff said, I was pointing to the gifts/talents God gives us in the spirit world. Then, in my dissertation, I explained the gifts/talents we receive in the flesh. In conclusion, I connected them by referring back to what Frank said when he mentioned that what we experience here in the physical world, is a shadow (or pattern) of what goes on in the spirit world.

Either you are purposely misrespresenting my comments, you have not actually completely read my comments, or you are having a reading comprehension problem. I will not play this game with you.

Love,

jo

[jo7241974]

er, Frank...

If God created us, body and spirit at conception, then God did not need to "obtain the prior knowledge" - He just made us the way he wanted to make us, with the talents he wanted to give us, and placed us in the place and time he wanted us to exist in.

It's pretty simple.

er Sparko:

Your interpretation makes God a respector of persons. Yet we know that He is NOT. How do you reconcile your interpretation when you turn God into something that He is not??

Love,

jo

[Sparko]

No Sparko:

This is what I said to you:

Go back and read what Jeff said in response to Frank.

This is what Jeff said which I was talking about:

Our firstborn was a prodigy before he turned one year old. He was born with those talents--he brought them with him from someplace else. They certainly weren't abilities he learned from his environment at such a young age.

Then I said to you:

God continues this same process of adding to or taking away spiritual gifts in accordance with our choices. As Frank mentioned, what we experience here in the physical world, is a shadow (or pattern) of what goes on in the spirit world.

All of my other dissertation was to explain how God decides what gifts/talents He will give to us in accordance to the choices we have made. They also present how it is that we all have different gifts/talents and manages to keep God from being a respector of persons. To be perfectly clear, He does not create us with gifts and talents in the spirit world, and to repeat what I have already said: Our Intelligence pre-disposes us with unique traits which, as spirits, are then made manifest. Through the choices we make as spirits, God gets to know us and does everything He can in order for us to progress. This happens in both the spirit world and in the flesh. By referring you to what Jeff said, I was pointing to the gifts/talents God gives us in the spirit world. Then, in my dissertation, I explained the gifts/talents we receive in the flesh. In conclusion, I connected them by referring back to what Frank said when he mentioned that what we experience here in the physical world, is a shadow (or pattern) of what goes on in the spirit world.

Either you are purposely misrespresenting my comments, you have not actually completely read my comments, or you are having a reading comprehension problem. I will not play this game with you.

Love,

jo

OK so let's start over...

Jo, do you believe God gives us various talents in the premortal life? Or are they something we just have on our own and develop ourselves? Are they a gift from God or not?

[Sparko]

er Sparko:

Your interpretation makes God a respector of persons. Yet we know that He is NOT. How do you reconcile your interpretation when you turn God into something that He is not??

Love,

jo

Are you saying God doesn't respect people?


Jo, you already admitted God makes us different physically at birth. Why not with different talents too? You keep bouncing around. When I claim that you said that God does NOT give us talents, you argue that you never said that. Then when I say that God does give us talents, you say he doesn't.

Please take your medications, Jo.

[nrajeff]

IMO, the bottom line is that the LDS doctrineposition (tm) is that--as Frank said--God is not arbitrary. This doctrine helps LDS be at peace with the obvious inequalities and seeming inequities that we see in life. Knowing (believing, if you will) that there is a good and reasonable reason for the things God does, keeps us from thinking that life is not fair, and keeps us from the hopelessness that might otherwise engulf us.

[nrajeff]

I always like to point out that the Gifts of the Spirit are assigned as the SPIRIT chooses. (And I think that's what you're saying, yes?)

I think so. It's not as if we get to boss the HS around. Perhaps the difference of opinion on the subject is related to the LDS' rejection of the idea of arbitrary predestination.

[jo7241974]

You are going from an ASSUMPTION that this "pre-existence" stuff is true, then you force Scripture to fit your view.

Hi CP!

I am curious. How do you interpret the passages in the Bible which claim God knew us before the foundation of the world? For instance:

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

"Chosen" is the past tense of "choose". Before the foundation of the world He had already chosen us in Him. But we weren't born in the flesh yet.

Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Because He knew us before the foundation of the world, He ordained ungodly men "to this condemnation".

In accordance with what Jeff, Frank, and I have been saying wherein, according to the choices we made in our pre-mortal existence, I would offer that some of us made good choices, and some of us made bad choices. In order to not be a respector of persons, God would not have "created/given birth by organizing our Intelligences" some spirits more perfectly than others. It is our co-existing Intelliegence which would have pre-disposed us with different traits. Thus, those of us who loved God and made choices which manifested this love, would fall into the category described in Eph 1:4. OTOH, I believe the individuals spoken of in Jude 1:4 are God's spirit children who made the choice in our pre-mortal existence to not love God (so, were ungodly) and to deny Jesus Christ. Due to their choices, God ordained them to be born on the earth in the latter days into circumstances which were meant to help teach them and to, perchance encourage them to change their pre-mortal choices; regardless, they are serving God's purposes in His Plan of Salvation. Ultimately, it will be the ungodly men on the Earth who will turn to satan and help satan's cause unless they choose otherwise. My take is that these particular spirits did not choose to follow satan in the pre-mortal existence, which is why they were not part of the 1/3 of the hosts of heaven to be cast out with satan. However, they were still rebellious spirits; and it appears they will likely choose to follow satan once they come to the Earth.

Now, if God is NOT a respector of persons, what would your explanation be as to why these ungodly men were ordained to this condemnation? "Ordained" is not the same as "created". Also, I believe "ordained" in this instance is referring to a period of time prior to birth in the flesh because of the words "who were before of old" which are used to describe them. I seriously doubt God would have created them to be ungodly, since this would mean God IS a respector of persons.

Frank,
You seem to make pronouncements, then support them with "I don't know", then add Scriptute TOTALLY out of context. Then you seem to ramble on incoherently. In BIG blocks of run-on text.

I would offer that when Frank says, "I can not explain this path to give you understanding. You must live this path.", that this is the same thing Paul was talking about when he taught us that spiritual things can only be understood spiritually.

There are other passages which indicate God knew us before we came to the earth; but since they have not been specifically mentioned yet in the thread, I will not address them in this post.

I hope this helps.

Love,

jo

[Sparko]

IMO, the bottom line is that the LDS doctrineposition (tm) is that--as Frank said--God is not arbitrary. This doctrine helps LDS be at peace with the obvious inequalities and seeming inequities that we see in life. Knowing (believing, if you will) that there is a good and reasonable reason for the things God does, keeps us from thinking that life is not fair, and keeps us from the hopelessness that might otherwise engulf us.

Arbitrary means to be random. Which is what you think God is, since he has no control in how anyone is born, or what abilities or talents they have.

We believe God is sovereign, meaning he is NOT arbitrary but in control. He chooses how to make us, what circumstances we are born into, what abilities we have, both mentally and physically, and what weaknesses we have.

And God does determine where and when each of us lives:

Acts 17:26 26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;