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Thread: The word "Jew" in the Bible

  1. #11
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    Kind of like a capital "I" and lower case "l" in many fonts look the same?
    Which, all conspiracy theories aside, is exactly why there is no J Street in DC.

    1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

  2. #12
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrift View Post
    It isn't. The 1611 KJV printed verses in Gothic typeface. In that typeface both I's and J's have the same appearance. A visual distinction between the letter "I" and "J" in English didn't come along until 1633. If you notice, the words Jerusalem, Jeconiah, Jair, and Judah use the same font.

    You can read more about these differences on the Wikipedia page,

    The original printing was made before English spelling was standardized, and when printers, as a matter of course, expanded and contracted the spelling of the same words in different places, so as to achieve an even column of text.[69] They set v for initial u and v, and u for u and v everywhere else. They used long ſ for non-final s.[70] The glyph j occurs only after i, as in the final letter in a Roman numeral. Punctuation was relatively heavy, and differed from current practice. When space needed to be saved, the printers sometimes used ye for the, (replacing the Middle English thorn with the continental y), set ã for an or am (in the style of scribe's shorthand), and set & for and. On the contrary, on a few occasions, they appear to have inserted these words when they thought a line needed to be padded. Later printings regularized these spellings; the punctuation has also been standardized, but still varies from current usage norms.

    The first printing used a black letter typeface instead of a roman typeface, which itself made a political and a religious statement. Like the Great Bible and the Bishops' Bible, the Authorized Version was "appointed to be read in churches". It was a large folio volume meant for public use, not private devotion; the weight of the type mirrored the weight of establishment authority behind it.[citation needed] However, smaller editions and roman-type editions followed rapidly, e.g. quarto roman-type editions of the Bible in 1612.[71] This contrasted with the Geneva Bible, which was the first English Bible printed in a roman typeface (although black-letter editions, particularly in folio format, were issued later).


    If you don't mind me asking, what's this all about exactly?
    I'm asking because I am having a conversation with a Muslim, who posted this:

    The word Jew did not exist until 1514 A.D. ...

    "According to Jewish-born Historian Benjamin H. Freedman, author of Facts Are Facts:

    “The best known 18th century editions of the New Testament in English are the Rheims (Douai) Edition and the King James Authorized Edition. The Rheims (Douai) translation of the New Testament into English was first printed in 1582 but the word ‘Jew’ did not appear in it.

    “The King James Authorized translation of the New Testament into English was begun in 1604 and first published in 1611. The word ‘Jew’ did not appear in it either. The word ‘Jew’ appeared in both these well known editions in their 18th century revised versions for the first times."

    He also said Jesus was not a Jew because He didn't have a human father. I am doing research on this too.

    Thanks guys.

  3. #13
    tWebber Adrift's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    Kind of like a capital "I" and lower case "l" in many fonts look the same?
    I think it's more the case that they simply used the same letter even if the word was pronounced differently. As this fantastic article points out, English was still in the process of being standardized between 1475 and c. 1630 as spelling was attempting to catch up with how people talked. The "I" "l" distinction may be a holdover from that, that never really got ironed out.

    This video gives a pretty good example on how "J" would have been pronounced even when it looked like "I":

    Last edited by Adrift; 06-30-2017 at 02:30 PM.

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    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian3 View Post
    I'm asking because I am having a conversation with a Muslim, who posted this:

    The word Jew did not exist until 1514 A.D. ...

    "According to Jewish-born Historian Benjamin H. Freedman, author of Facts Are Facts:

    “The best known 18th century editions of the New Testament in English are the Rheims (Douai) Edition and the King James Authorized Edition. The Rheims (Douai) translation of the New Testament into English was first printed in 1582 but the word ‘Jew’ did not appear in it.

    “The King James Authorized translation of the New Testament into English was begun in 1604 and first published in 1611. The word ‘Jew’ did not appear in it either. The word ‘Jew’ appeared in both these well known editions in their 18th century revised versions for the first times."

    He also said Jesus was not a Jew because He didn't have a human father. I am doing research on this too.

    Thanks guys.
    Actually, it's kinda pointless to use "language" as a "proof" in a case like this. Abraham was a "Hebrew", which was עברי (pronounced "Ivri"). As I recall, that meant "the other side", and either "Moses stood on the 'other side' of religion, because he worshiped only One God", and/or he came from "the other side of the river". That they were not necessarily called "Jews" does not mean that they don't go all the way back to Abraham.

    1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

  5. #15
    tWebber Adrift's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian3 View Post
    I'm asking because I am having a conversation with a Muslim, who posted this:

    The word Jew did not exist until 1514 A.D. ...

    "According to Jewish-born Historian Benjamin H. Freedman, author of Facts Are Facts:

    “The best known 18th century editions of the New Testament in English are the Rheims (Douai) Edition and the King James Authorized Edition. The Rheims (Douai) translation of the New Testament into English was first printed in 1582 but the word ‘Jew’ did not appear in it.

    “The King James Authorized translation of the New Testament into English was begun in 1604 and first published in 1611. The word ‘Jew’ did not appear in it either. The word ‘Jew’ appeared in both these well known editions in their 18th century revised versions for the first times."

    He also said Jesus was not a Jew because He didn't have a human father. I am doing research on this too.

    Thanks guys.
    Oh brother. How silly. If he's seriously attempting to suggest that the word "Jew" didn't exist in English because "I" and "J" weren't standardized until later, he's a nutter and not worth bothering with. Here's a copy of the same passage from a 1637/38 copy of the King James where the "I" and "J" have become standardized (notice the lower-case "s" still isn't standardized),


  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian3 View Post
    He also said Jesus was not a Jew because He didn't have a human father. I am doing research on this too.
    Ask him if it's OK if you make up the rules for who is a Muslim.

    A Jew is any person whose mother was a Jew or any person who has gone through the formal process of conversion to Judaism.

    1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

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    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Ask him if it's OK if you make up the rules for who is a Muslim.

    A Jew is any person whose mother was a Jew or any person who has gone through the formal process of conversion to Judaism.
    From Jewish Virtual Library...

    According to Jewish law, a child born to a Jewish mother or an adult who has converted to Judaism is considered a Jew; one does not have to reaffirm their Jewishness or practice any of the laws of the Torah to be Jewish. According to Reform Judaism, a person is a Jew if they were born to either a Jewish mother or a Jewish father. Also, Reform Judaism stresses the importance of being raised Jewish; if a child is born to Jewish parents and was not raised Jewish then the child is not considered Jewish. According to the Orthodox movement, the father’s religion and whether the person practices is immaterial. No affirmation or upbringing is needed, as long as the mother was Jewish.

    1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

  8. #18
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    If Momma ain't Jewish, ain't NOBODY Jewish!



    As an aside, I thought it was interesting the way our Jewish tour guide referred to her people, not as "Jews", but as "the Jewish". One of her favorite sayings was "If there is a difficult way to do something, 'the Jewish' will find it!"

    1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

  9. #19
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian3 View Post
    I'm asking because I am having a conversation with a Muslim, who posted this:

    The word Jew did not exist until 1514 A.D. ...

    "According to Jewish-born Historian Benjamin H. Freedman, author of Facts Are Facts:

    “The best known 18th century editions of the New Testament in English are the Rheims (Douai) Edition and the King James Authorized Edition. The Rheims (Douai) translation of the New Testament into English was first printed in 1582 but the word ‘Jew’ did not appear in it.

    “The King James Authorized translation of the New Testament into English was begun in 1604 and first published in 1611. The word ‘Jew’ did not appear in it either. The word ‘Jew’ appeared in both these well known editions in their 18th century revised versions for the first times."

    He also said Jesus was not a Jew because He didn't have a human father. I am doing research on this too.

    Thanks guys.
    "Jew" comes from "the tribe of Judah" one of the 12 hebrew tribes. so no matter what the word or how it was spelled the meaning is the same, someone from the tribe of judah (which if I recall was combined with benjamin) - so even if the ancient people called them something other than "jew" the meaning is exactly the same.

  10. #20
    tWebber Adrift's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Ask him if it's OK if you make up the rules for who is a Muslim.

    A Jew is any person whose mother was a Jew or any person who has gone through the formal process of conversion to Judaism.
    If I remember correctly, strict matrilineality for determining Jewishness may have been a Talmudic convention. Modern Karaite Jews determine Jewishness through the father. It probably didn't really matter much in Jesus' period which parent was a Jew, but it's just more goofiness to assume that Jesus was not Jewish simply because of the virgin birth. I'm sure there's apologetics for dealing with Jews and Muslims who hold this opinion, but it never ceases to amaze me that distances people go to hold onto their pet theories.

  11. Amen Cow Poke, Teallaura, Cerebrum123 amen'd this post.

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