God's Foreordination and Man's Responsibility

[themuzicman]

Not everything that surprises man surprises God, to be sure. But in your view, sometimes even with his perfect knowledge of "what was going on in the guy's head," is still surprised by what happens down the line. Right? Isn't that what Greg Boyd counseled the woman whose husband was unfaithful, even though everyone said previously that it was God's will that they get married?

I think God knows possibilities, and isn't surprised when the man actually files for divorce, as He watches the situation develop. We can say that whether the marriage would end in divorce was uncertain at the time of the wedding, and was a wise choice at the time.

John Eldredge speaks of God "risking" in his book Wild at Heart, but to my knowledge he is not an Open Theist either. (But I do disagree with his use of risk, for the very reason that you identify.) Again, I think this issue will disappear (from this thread anyway) if Ladybug returns to clarify whether she meant "God is ignorant of the future" when she used the word "risk."

That may be so. Or, she may simply be reflecting what is clearly a biblical reality, when we peel away the systematic theology from Scripture.

[Cow Poke]

I think this is way overthought, sometimes. I'm pretty simple -- I take Jesus' "commission" to go and preach, and tell the Good News, and all that stuff we learned in Sunday School.

I'm not afraid that, when I stand before God, He's gonna say "you took that part about spreading the gospel way too seriously".

What HE does with what I do is up to Him.

Yeah, I know, a bit simplistic.

[RBerman]

That may be so. Or, she may simply be reflecting what is clearly a biblical reality, when we peel away the systematic theology from Scripture.

"Risk" itself would be a term systematically overlaid on Scripture, not a term Scripture uses to describe God's behavior or attitudes. Open Theism is a systematic theology, just a different one from conventional theism.

[Littlejoe]

I didn't know there was a name for it but ill go with it.

Uggh, don't let LittleJoe bamboozle you. What you proposed in your previous post is only a fragment of what Open Theism claims. Open Theism is the belief that in general, God doesn't even know what we're going to do before we do it. Not only does He give us free will, but He's as surprised as the rest of us with what actually happens. Is that what you believe?

Pfui! Don't let RBerman fill your head with his misrepresentations of OVT, he proves all the time that "he doesn't want to be confused with facts his mind is made up!"

LJ

[Littlejoe]

I am fairly sure that isn't what she's describing. I think she's trying to point out that both free will and Gods omniscience and foreordination can exist, in spite of the fact our finite limited minds find it hard to put that together into a single, understandable construct.


Jim

Hey Jim! Sure I could be reading more into her post than what's there...but you could be under reading it also! As Muz pointed out, risk is uniquely found in OVT. That's why I made the statement...

Frankly, it seems to me your using a similar heurmeneutic that is used by ID/YEC...the appeal to mystery. You can believe that God's omniscience encompasses all that will ever take place as already settled, but realistically, you probably don't live your life that way...do you?

LJ

[Ladybug823]

No, it isn't, I think God knows what is going to happen. So he definitely knows the risk of us being disobedient and shunning goodness is worth it. I still believes he knows everything and can do anything he wants, and that everything works out to his will no matter what.

[Cow Poke]

... and that everything works out to his will no matter what.

I have a problem with this last part, LB -- Peter says that God is not willing that ANY should perish.

[Ladybug823]

Hey Jim! Sure I could be reading more into her post than what's there...but you could be under reading it also! As Muz pointed out, risk is uniquely found in OVT. That's why I made the statement...

Frankly, it seems to me your using a similar heurmeneutic that is used by ID/YEC...the appeal to mystery. You can believe that God's omniscience encompasses all that will ever take place as already settled, but realistically, you probably don't live your life that way...do you?

LJ

I thought I should go ahead and clarify since everyone seems to be wondering what I meant in that post. Oxmixmudd is pretty much spot on as to what I meant, I think that God knows everything that will happen, that he is outside of time, however that he also granted us free will, and since we are inside time we can make choices of our own free will. Both exist to their full extent, I personally think there is only a contradiction because

A) we physically cannot comprehend anything outside our current timeline
B) God did not intend for us to understand such things

Therefore there is no purpose in trying to reconcile the two by traditional methods, it has to be taken purely on trust.

[Ladybug823]

I have a problem with this last part, LB -- Peter says that God is not willing that ANY should perish.

This is complicated, and honestly I am not sure exactly how this works out. I know God has a will and that things work out according to his plan, I know that God does not will us into disobedience and death. I think that is our fault, he gave us the gift of free will, and in order to give us free will he HAS to grant us the ability to do things outside of his will, he just has the power to make it work out according to his will for those of us that will accept and love him and wish to live according to his will.

[Catholicity]

This is complicated, and honestly I am not sure exactly how this works out. I know God has a will and that things work out according to his plan, I know that God does not will us into disobedience and death. I think that is our fault, he gave us the gift of free will, and in order to give us free will he HAS to grant us the ability to do things outside of his will, he just has the power to make it work out according to his will for those of us that will accept and love him and wish to live according to his will.

thats the Catholic position too Ladybug, and Cowpoke, God is not willing that any should perish, but it is of our own free will that we do or do not choose Him. And if we don't well....we face consequences. However as long as we remain on this earth we have a continual chance to come back and as to what happens after death? Well we let God decide our final judgement

[Littlejoe]

No, it isn't, I think God knows what is going to happen. So he definitely knows the risk of us being disobedient and shunning goodness is worth it. I still believes he knows everything and can do anything he wants, and that everything works out to his will no matter what.

I thought I should go ahead and clarify since everyone seems to be wondering what I meant in that post. Oxmixmudd is pretty much spot on as to what I meant, I think that God knows everything that will happen, that he is outside of time, however that he also granted us free will, and since we are inside time we can make choices of our own free will. Both exist to their full extent, I personally think there is only a contradiction because

A) we physically cannot comprehend anything outside our current timeline
B) God did not intend for us to understand such things

Therefore there is no purpose in trying to reconcile the two by traditional methods, it has to be taken purely on trust.

Ok, thanks for clarifying! Jim was right and I was wrong about what you said
...but you really need to adjust how you are describing it...if God already knows everything and has known it either by His will (calvinism) or by his simple foreknowledge (arminianism) then there is no "risk"...He already knows what's going to happen. Look at it this way:

Let's say God timelessly knows that Susan will be in a fatal car accident on her 21st birthday. Now, this simple foreknowledge does not cause her death or even determine her choice to go driving with her friends. (All we are looking at is whether or not timelessly definite foreknowledge provides God a basis upon which he is able to act providentially.) So, can God use his knowledge of Susan’s death to warn Susan not to go driving?...nope... Can God act in a miraculous way to prevent this accident?...nope... In fact, can God do anything on the basis of his knowledge that Susan will die to prevent her from dying? The answer to these questions is, of course, that even God cannot intervene on the basis of simple-foreknowledge in order to prevent this event from happening. Why, because since God’s foreknowledge is infallible, what he foreknows will happen...will indeed happen. Not even God can act in order to change what he infallibly knows will come to pass. Simple-foreknowledge, if it existed, would be absolutely useless to God in preventing foreknown evil and other undesired events taking place....since we know that God does indeed intervene... where does that leave us? Calvinism - God ordained that Susan would die, Arminianism - God always knew she would die...in neither case can prayer or...well... anything else really ever save Susan from death in a car accident. It's going to happen.

So, even extrapolating this to election (who gets saved and who doesn't) The same scenario applies using the above reasoning. God either decreed from the foundation of the world that you would or would not accept Him (calvinism) or He already knew from the foundation of the world that you would or would not accept Him (arminianism) there is no risk as He always knew.

LJ

[Cow Poke]

thats the Catholic position too Ladybug, and Cowpoke, God is not willing that any should perish,

Yes, I'm well aware of that... which is why I don't think "all things work out to God's will" -- we can choose NOT to be saved.

but it is of our own free will that we do or do not choose Him. And if we don't well....we face consequences. However as long as we remain on this earth we have a continual chance to come back and as to what happens after death? Well we let God decide our final judgement

Which is why, when LadyBug said....

... and that everything works out to his will no matter what.

I said...

I have a problem with this last part, LB -- Peter says that God is not willing that ANY should perish.

I didn't think it was necessary to point out that not EVERYBODY is going to be saved, therefore, God is NOT getting His will "no matter what".

[KingsGambit]

I didn't think it was necessary to point out that not EVERYBODY is going to be saved, therefore, God is NOT getting His will "no matter what".

The degree to which God respects our free will, despite the extreme ramifications, should make us tremble.

[RBerman]

I agree with LittleJoe to the extent that one should not say that God "risks" anything unless you also believe that God doesn't know the future in an exhaustive and definitive way. That's why the historic Christian approach has been to avoid "risk" language for God. But every so often, a wave of Socianians rears its collective head and proposes that God doesn't know the future (exhaustively and definitively) in the first place, so we can't hold it against him when his best guesses go bad. He's only human. Well, not human; more like a Greek god, endowed with superhuman powers but lacking complete knowledge of the future, and doing the best he can under the circumstances. (And then the Socinians often accuse the orthodox Christians of being the ones contaminated by Greek thinking! Oh, the irony...)

[Ladybug823]

Ok risk was probably the wrong word for what I was trying to say (give me a break it was 9 am in between classes )
I apologize for that, sometimes my wording of things can cause confusion as to what I mean.

I guess the bottom line is that I think that God is all knowing and all powerful, but that he is giving us free will and he decides not to interfere with that free will. It is his will to do so, and as he is all powerful he is able to intervene for those of us who choose life through Jesus Christ.
This also means that he has chosen to allow those who do not choose life through Christ to not choose life. Therefore it is his will that we exert our own free will.

I suppose this is how I come to my conclusion of everything working according to his will. While it is his will that we all choose life, it is more important that we choose it and it is not forced on us.