Eternal and Infinite Physical existence?

[Leonhard]

No I meant the infinite/finite dichotomy i.e. the idea of applying these words in a meaningful way to the discussion is acceptable.

Uh... okay.

I do however think that the concept of a finite, uncaused universe, is the worse or most irrational option of the three.

Well you go ahead and think that, I disagree, but you're not saying something new so I'm heading off. Might be back if JimL starts responding.

[seer]

Well you go ahead and think that, I disagree, but you're not saying something new so I'm heading off. Might be back if JimL starts responding.

Well I don't see how the finite, uncaused option is even remotely possible or rational.

[phank]

Well I don't see how the finite, uncaused option is even remotely possible or rational.

You don't seem to see very much. Every time your precious little god is threatened, you go blind. And here we go again. Your handle is one of the most ironic I've ever encountered.

[seer]

You don't seem to see very much. Every time your precious little god is threatened, you go blind. And here we go again. Your handle is one of the most ironic I've ever encountered.

And every time your little god of materialism threatened you are willing to accept the most irrational concepts to protect it...

[Rational Gaze]

[shunyadragon]

Absolutely fascinating video!!! Thank you!!!!!!There is new information here where Velinkin goes into more detail on his argument against other theories for the formation and nature of our universe and any possible universe. Caution other than that, nothing new. This theory only applies to the beginning of expansion of a universe, and has no relevance to his and other theories concerning the nature of our physical existence that contains our universe.

Vilenkin's and other cosmologists have other theories that deal with the nature of our physical existence which contains our universe and all possible universes as a whole. Vilenkin's theory still describes the universe beginning through Quantum tunneling, which he touches on in this discussion. This theory just goes back to the point inflation begins, and this is the the only beginning he is referring to here.

The end he concludes 'probably yes' and of course he leaves a lot of questions open

[shunyadragon]

Well I don't see how the finite, uncaused option is even remotely possible or rational.

It is an infinite uncaused physical existence which contains our universe that would be meaningful option not a finite one.

The finite universe we live in would not be uncaused. It would be caused by the laws of nature, existing material. In Vilenkin's view beginning through Quantum tunneling.

[JimL]

It is an infinite uncaused physical existence which contains our universe that would be meaningful option not a finite one.

The finite universe we live in would not be uncaused. It would be caused by the laws of nature, existing material. In Vilenkin's view beginning through Quantum tunneling.

I'm never quite sure shunya, how you fit God into your understanding of an infinite uncaused physical existence. Do you have a simple explanation for this idea?

[shunyadragon]

I'm never quite sure shunya, how you fit God into your understanding of an infinite uncaused physical existence. Do you have a simple explanation for this idea?

Simply, you do not try and fit God into a human scientific concept of a universe, nor does it work to try and fit science into a human concept of God as many traditional theists do.

[JimL]

Simply, you do not try and fit God into a human scientific concept of a universe, nor does it work to try and fit science into a human concept of God as many traditional theists do.

And yet, is that not what you are doing? If the universe is etenal, infinite, and uncaused physical existence, then what need is there to posit the existence of a Lord over it all, so to speak? I mean I understand that you can, but if the universe is what it is, eternal and uncaused, operating under its own eternal laws, then what purpose is there in positing a distinct and eternal God as well?

[shunyadragon]

And yet, is that not what you are doing? If the universe is etenal, infinite, and uncaused physical existence, then what need is there to posit the existence of a Lord over it all, so to speak? I mean I understand that you can, but if the universe is what it is, eternal and uncaused, operating under its own eternal laws, then what purpose is there in positing a distinct and eternal God as well?

No, that is not what I am doing. In this thread I am taking science as what science is, and making no assumptions nor correlations with the belief in God. I make no assumption whether our physical existence is caused nor uncaused, nor whether the Natural Laws of our physical existence are 'Nature's Own' alone. We cannot define 'purpose' from the perspective of God. I separate any question of 'why?' and purpose as theological and philosophical questions, and not scientific questions concerning the nature of our physical existence from the perspective of science.

One fairly simple proposal of the nature of the relationship between our physical existence and the 'source' some call God(s) is that physical existence is simply an eternal infinite existence that is a reflection of the nature of God in a physical form always existing as God exists eternally. Another possibility is that in reality our physical existence is finite and temporal, but this nature is currently beyond the abilities of science to understand. These represent only hypothetical possible explanations on my part, and not the way I necessarily believe it,

The present limits of our scientific knowledge, and best current theories and hypotheses indicate that there is no evidence for a finite and temporal physical existence, and the current models based on Quantum Mechanics and related theories show no evidence of temporal nor finite limits, and actually fail if finite and temporal limits are considered.

Again, Vilenkin's theory concerning the universe only deals with the finite limits of the expansion beginning of any possible universe including ours..