The Imputation of Christ's Active Obedience to Believers

[RBerman]

First, in terms of theology, speaking in terms of "winning" is misguided (as though this is an athletic competition, with the main objective in view to discover who is the fastest runner, the strongest slugger, etc., etc.). The simple question is which perspective best comports with the biblical data (without discounting or dismissing the importance of historical theology, which just so happens to not fall on the side of double imputation). As far as offering some reasons pertaining to my rejection of of double imputation and acceptance of single imputation only, see my post above in response to BookerG.

Remonstrant, we know you. You didn't start this thread looking for information. You started it looking for a fight. "Here, you punch at me, because I'm in the mood to dodge." No, thank you.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

How would you suggest interpreting these verses (in particularly Romans 5:18 and 2 Corinthians 5:21) apart from what seems to us Protestants to be the most natural reading, as posited above? Were there any other interpretations posited by the early church fathers? I ask sincerely - I've never really considered any other interpretations, but you mentioned that they could be interpreted otherwise, and I'm not sure how.

Here is a quote from St. Kyril of Alexandria on Romans 5:18:

"Just as human nature acquired the weakness of corruption in Adam because of disobedience,
and evil desires invaded it,
so the same nature was later set free by Christ,
Who was obedient to God the Father
and did not commit sin."

Ver. 18. “Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;
even so by the righteousness of One the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.”

by the offense of one vs by the righteousness of One
judgement came vs the free gift came
upon all men = upon all men
unto condemnation vs unto justification of life

What stands out clearly here is that the righteousness of Christ bought the free gift to all men, which gift is unto justification of life...
This clearly means that justification is NOT the free gift... The free gift is UNTO justification of life... As Ver. 19 goes on to say:

“For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners,
so by the obedience of One shall many be made righteous."

So the question is: What IS this free gift that is UNTO righteousness of life?
We can see that it involves Grace... Righteousness is justification by faith...
So what is the gift that is UNTO such justification?

It would appear to be entry into the Body of Christ in Baptism, for we are baptized into Christ, indeed into His DEATH... And in this, we receive the gift of the forgiveness of sins, and the engrafting into the True Vine that Christ IS... That is what it looks like to me at this point - And I can be corrected...

This Faith is ALL about Christ... Christ in us, Christ among us, and we in Him... The Gift is Christ Himself... It is given when we are Baptized INTO Christ, for Scripture reads: "All who have been Baptized into Christ have put on Christ..."

The other thing that stands out is that Christ's Righteousness is seen in His obedience to the Father, and one would then infer that OUR righteousness is attained in obedience to Christ...

I think of Scrooge in the Christmas Story - How that hardened old heart did not have lovingkindness IMPUTED to its evils, but was instead TRANSFORMED into this bright and loving and sensitive and generous and caring heart... Not a new heart, but one transformed from the deformity of evil to the grace and beauty of God... He stopped doing the sins he was so evil in the doing of... And became a radiant person...

Arsenios

[The Remonstrant]

Judging Motives & A Bonus Public Rebuke to RBerman

Remonstrant, we know you. You didn't start this thread looking for information. You started it looking for a fight. "Here, you punch at me, because I'm in the mood to dodge." No, thank you.

I appreciated your first message on this thread (#2), where you (briefly) addressed the topic of the opening post. Subsequently you denied that burden of proof belongs to your position (#6), more or less insinuated that I hadn't offered reasons for my objections to the doctrine (which isn't true; see posts #4 and #10), and now are assessing my motives for initiating this thread (#16): "You didn't start this thread looking for information. You started it looking for a fight." Your ill assessment of my motives simply isn't true. And since you posted this publicly on this forum (as opposed to chiding me in a private message), I rebuke you publicly for doing so. You do not have any right to judge my motives or cast aspersions on my character (or anyone else's, for that matter). Again, your statement is false. You don't wish to engage the opening post, fine. But this thread doesn't need to be converted to a distracted platform of ad hominem remarks. Please don't waste my or the other readers' time with further nonsense of this kind.

Okay, back to the thread everyone.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

I think of Scrooge in the Christmas Story - How that hardened old heart did not have lovingkindness IMPUTED to its evils, but was instead TRANSFORMED into this bright and loving and sensitive and generous and caring heart... Not a new heart, but one transformed from the deformity of evil to the grace and beauty of God... He stopped doing the sins he was so evil in the doing of... And became a radiant person...

So here is the question - For those of you, or anyone, who believes in IMPUTED righteousness...

What happened to Ebeneezer Scrooge?

Arsenios

[The Remonstrant]

So here is the question - For those of you, or anyone, who believes in IMPUTED righteousness...

What happened to Ebeneezer Scrooge?

In the case of Scrooge, his heart was softened, the affections of his mind and heart were changed/transformed. First and foremost, his was a moral change (as opposed to a legal or forensic one), an actual change, not a change of legal status.

Paul grounds our moral change in union with Christ (yes, through baptism), dying to sin so that we can live to God. The seed of transformation is planted in regeneration and our cooperation with (being led by) the Holy Spirit for the purposes of attaining to higher and higher levels of personal righteousness (Christ-likeness). Justification, though a positive divine declaration of righteousness (received through faith, based on Christ's propitiation for the sins of the whole world), is, in a very real sense, a negative work of God. Our sins are blotted out, covered, not counted against us, remitted, etc., etc., but no positive works are "credited" (as it were) to the believer's account.

The need for personal righteousness and progression in holiness is what union with Christ and regeneration by the power of the Holy Spirit are all about. The blood of Christ will wash us clean of all our sins, yes, but we are not provided with some sort of "cloak" for our unrighteousness through someone else's personal obedience to the laws precepts.. I.e., if we are living unholy lives, when God looks down on us, he is not seeing Christ or the perfect reflection of his Son with whom he is well pleased. Rather, God sees things as they actually are: a believer living in a way totally unbecoming of the profession of a saint. Those who persist in perverse moral conduct and attitudes will not inherit the kingdom of God "wherein righteousness dwells". Obedience to Christ's commands are not optional; sanctification is not optional, nor does it come about by a divine work alone. We need the power of the Holy Spirit, yes (without whom we are unable to obey God rightly). But I repeat, saints also must cooperate with God through the Holy Spirit in union with Christ. God will not do it for you. But he does provides the power and means which we are constantly exhorted to utilize throughout the NT.

[RBerman]

So here is the question - For those of you, or anyone, who believes in IMPUTED righteousness... What happened to Ebeneezer Scrooge?

metanoia.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Originally posted by George Blaisdell
So here is the question - For those of you, or anyone, who believes in IMPUTED righteousness... What happened to Ebeneezer Scrooge?

metanoia.

Did he receive an imputation of righteousness???

And what is the inter-relationship of his metanoia and his imputed righteousness?

I mean, IS there any?

Arsenios

[RBerman]

Did he receive an imputation of righteousness???

And what is the inter-relationship of his metanoia and his imputed righteousness?

I mean, IS there any?

Arsenios

They correlate; God gives them to the same people.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

They correlate; God gives them to the same people.

Then show his metanoia and his imputed righteousness and then show how they inter-relate...

The story presents ONLY his metanoia, as I recall...
No imputational events at all, were there?
Or if there were, which ones?

Arsenios

[RBerman]

Then show his metanoia and his imputed righteousness and then show how they inter-relate...

The story presents ONLY his metanoia, as I recall...
No imputational events at all, were there?
Or if there were, which ones?

So far as I know, Charles Dickens' "A Christmas Carol" shows only the change in Scrooge's behavior, without addressing his relationship with God at all.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

So far as I know, Charles Dickens' "A Christmas Carol" shows only the change in Scrooge's behavior, without addressing his relationship with God at all.

<<<OR>>>

How the WEST was LOST...

I mean, if THAT was not a story of redemption, then forget redemption...

Lord have Mercy!

Arsenios

[RBerman]

I mean, if THAT was not a story of redemption, then forget redemption... Lord have Mercy!

Redemption has multiple aspects. Am I incorrect in saying that Scrooge's relationship with God was not addressed explicitly in that story?

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Redemption has multiple aspects.

And all of a single cloth...

Am I incorrect in saying that Scrooge's relationship with God was not addressed explicitly in that story?

Yes.

Perhaps you can tell us how it is that a total depravity Calvinist would understand the story of Scrooge...

Arsenios

[RBerman]

Perhaps you can tell us how it is that a total depravity Calvinist would understand the story of Scrooge.

I'd understand it as a falsehood, since there are no such things as ghosts. But if you're speaking strictly of Scrooge's change of heart, many a pagan has reformed his ways in some fashion, whether for a short time or a long one. But only by the Spirit of God can we confess that Jesus is Lord.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

I'd understand it as a falsehood, since there are no such things as ghosts.

Hmmmmm.... "Father, Son and Holy Ghost..." Well, so much for the Trinity...

But if you're speaking strictly of Scrooge's change of heart,

"Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God..."

many a pagan has reformed his ways in some fashion, whether for a short time or a long one.

Obviously God has no part with conversion of pagans, right?

But only by the Spirit of God can we confess that Jesus is Lord.

So salvation is about words???

Well, at least you did answer the question, thank-you...

The Christmas conversion of Scrooge is a falsehood in your total-depravity understanding...

Fair enough, and thank-you...

This kind of understanding is "How the West was LOST..."

It is a Scroogic, dry, and heartless understanding...

Of the intervention by God into a hardened heart...

And its holy transformation into the likeness of God...

Any other Calvinists out there?

Arsenios