The SECRET TEACHINGS of Orthodoxy!

[franktalk]

Jo, When does Sacred Scripture become a stumbling block, for whom and why? I'm not sure I follow. If Sacred Scripture is one of the Pillars and Foundations of Truth, how can it be a Stumbling Block then?

I will answer that.

If you have a hundred people that read a passage you will have the people who are walking in the spirit all read scripture the same way. The others will be all over the map. Without spiritual discernment the scriptures can not be understood.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

So having the truth in front of you means nothing without the help of the Holy Ghost. Now you may believe that some guy in Rome has the Holy Ghost and you do not. That can be your belief but it is not mine. I believe in God and His helper which He sent for all men. But the Holy Spirit is not of the world.

1 John 5

7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

8And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

On the earth it is the Spirit and not our own understanding of the Word that is our witness. Notice it does not say that the Pope will get the message and then give it to you. In Heaven after we have lost this flesh and have become more spiritual our self then and only then is the Word a witness. Notice there is no Pope there either.

[Chrawnus]

If you have a hundred people that read a passage you will have the people who are walking in the spirit all read scripture the same way. The others will be all over the map. Without spiritual discernment the scriptures can not be understood.

So, how do you determine which people are "walking in the spirit" and which ones are "all over the map"?

[Xru]

So, how do you determine which people are "walking in the spirit" and which ones are "all over the map"?

The ones walking in the spirit Chrawnus . . . don't you know anything;)

[Catholicity]

1 John 5

7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

So who then is the Word? (eta. we'll address how the Pope comes into any authority we address the Word)

[jo7241974]

Your either/or mentality seems to be getting in the way Jo. Do you understand the concept of degrees yet? I know few protestants today or in the era that thought the church was 100% corrupt and nothing good ever came from it. Second, you're ignoring the literal speaking terms that were common in that time, they often spoke in either/or, but didn't always think that. As I told you, it's throughout the Bible and show in examples where Jesus uses love/hate in either/or terms. If you studied this stuff instead of picking out what you want to hear, you'd know this. Finally, humans are all sinners Jo and per your logic, we all produce bad fruit and therefore NOBODY produces good fruit (including your prophets). See, Jesus is the cure to this state of spiritual decay and helped bring the sick tree to produce good fruits. It doesn't say humans will not make mistakes and some will not claim to be Christians, but not live it out. In conclusion, your argument is just plain silly and based on your over literal views of the Bible.

I already explained this to you Jo and you ignored it and just said the same sort of idiocy that is so common from either/or nuts. The Bible was written to a culture that spoke in extremes that didn't usually speak in matters of degrees, but understood it. Likewise, per the Bible, were all ALL sinners, we are ALL corrupt, and we are ALL like the bad tree. Jesus is the cure to this corruption and he could have easily choose to uproot us all, but he didn't. Now drop the either/or idiocy for a second and try to think Jo, if we are ALL sinners and Christ set us free from our sin, what does that mean for the rest of us? It means we can all be saved, if we are willing to accept.

Waiting for you to catch up with me..........

Bingo, which is why we do not take the either/or attitude to the Bible. We understand that Jesus spoke in extremes, but didn't necessarily mean those extremes. We also understand that while we are all sinners, Christ died for us. We are all, in a sense, that corrupt tree Jo, the thing is that Jesus offered a cure to cure us of that corruption.

I'm not sure who the "we" are you are referring to. I will say that it is certainly your prerogative to not take an either/or attitude to the Bible. I believe that such an attitude opens scripture to even more misinterpretations, as you are then unlimited in your choices and allow yourself to believe that it is teaching anything that you want it to. Thus, you turn the Bible into a stumbling block by wresting with scripture because you have created an attitude on how you are going to interpret the Bible. A pre-determined attitude does not provide a place for the Holy Ghost to guide you; and He is the ONLY one who can reveal spiritual Truth on the earth.

I do not believe that the individual member is considered a Tree according to scripture, as I have already explained.

Love,

jo

[Cow Poke]

Hi Xru,

You just made me laugh; sorry. I don't think it is ever a good thing to ignore the Bible. When the Bible is a stumbling block, it is because people don't understand what the Bible is teaching. When they don't understand what they are reading, they misinterpret it. That is why I also included Peter's warning in 2 Pet 3:16.

Love,

jo

While you're laughing, Jo, you might take a look at a broader context of research on the text. Here are just a few samples....

Schreiner, T. R. (2007). Vol. 37: 1, 2 Peter, Jude (electronic ed.). Logos Library System; The New American Commentary (111). Nas=hville: Broadman & Holman Publishers.

2:8 Verse 8 continues the thought from v. 7. We can summarize the verses as follows: Those who disbelieve stumble over the stone, who is Christ. They stumble over Christ because they refuse to believe in him and obey him. People who stumble and disobey are responsible for their refusal to trust in Christ, and yet God has appointed, without himself being morally responsible for the sin of unbelievers, that they will both disobey and stumble.
The stone that sits at the head of the corner is one over which the disbelieving stumble and fall.

© source where applicable

Jamieson, R., Fausset, A. R., Fausset, A. R., Brown, D., & Brown, D. (1997). A commentary, critical and explanatory, on the Old and New Testaments (1 Pe 2:8). Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

8. stone of stumbling, &c.—quoted from Is 8:14. Not merely they stumbled, in that their prejudices were offended; but their stumbling implies the judicial punishment of their reception of Messiah; they hurt themselves in stumbling over the corner-stone, as “stumble” means in Je 13:16; Da 11:19.

© source where applicable

Walls, D., & Anders, M. (1999). Vol. 11: I & II Peter, I, II & III John, Jude. Holman New Testament Commentary; Holman Reference (30). Nashville, TN: Broadman & Holman Publishers.

2:6–8. Peter wove together two strands of Old Testament prophecy to further illustrate the centrality of Jesus Christ in the life of the individual Christian and the corporate church. He drew the picture of the precious cornerstone from Isaiah 28:16 and the rejected capstone from Psalm 118:22. The cornerstone or foundation stone established the design and structure of the building. The capstone might describe a foundation stone or, more likely, the topmost piece, the finishing or crowning touch to the building. The point is that from beginning to end, the church is built on Jesus Christ. Jesus is both the foundation cornerstone on which his church is built and the capstone up to which it grows. Jesus Christ is always the foundation of all that the individual Christian—as well as the church as a whole—believes.

© source where applicable

Wuest, K. S. (1997). Wuest's word studies from the Greek New Testament : For the English reader (1 Pe 2:8). Grand Rapids: Eerdmans.

The words “a stone of stumbling” are the translation of lithos (λιθος), “a loose stone in the path,” and proskommatos (προσκομματος) meaning “to cut against,” which altogether mean “an obstacle against which one strikes.” The words “rock of offence” are from petra (πετρα), “a ledge rising out of the ground,” and skandalou, “a trap set to trip one.” Our word “scandal” comes from the latter word. These who are disobedient (the literal Greek has it “non-persuasable”) are appointed to stumble at the Word, which is the penalty for refusal to believe it. “By faith we understand” (Heb. 11:3), is the God-ordained way. Thus, unbelievers find the Living Stone, which is precious to believers, an obstacle against which they strike, and a scandal, that which offends them.

© source where applicable

The Pulpit Commentary: 1 Peter. 2004 (H. D. M. Spence-Jones, Ed.) (71). Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

Ver. 8.—And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence. St. Peter combines Isa. 8:14 with big first quotations, as St. Paul also does (Rom. 9:33), both apostles quoting from the Hebrew, not from the Septuagint, which is quite different, inserting two negatives. The living Stone is not only made the Head of the corner to the confusion of the disobedient, but becomes also to their destruction a Stone of stumbling; they fall on that Stone, and are broken (Matt. 21:44).

© source where applicable

Lea, T. D. (1998). The General Letters. In D. S. Dockery (Ed.), Holman concise Bible commentary: Simple, straightforward commentary on every book of the Bible (D. S. Dockery, Ed.) (636–637). Nashville, TN: Broadman & Holman Publishers.

Peter used three images to describe the church in this section. First, he portrayed the church as a living body that gave sacrificial service to God. Christ was a life-giving Stone who enabled His followers to produce such spiritual sacrifices as obedience (Rom. 12:1), praise, and practical ministry (Heb. 13:15–16). Second, he described the church as a building or structure founded on Christ as the cornerstone. He quoted Old Testament passages from Isaiah 8:14; 28:16 and Psalm 118:22 to show that Christ was a foundation stone for believers and a rock which caused tripping for unbelievers. Third, he used the language of Exodus 19:5–6 and Hosea 2:23 to portray believers as a select nation reflecting the glories of God. God had fashioned special recipients of His mercy from those who previously never belonged to anyone.

© source where applicable

Willmington, H. L. (1997). Willmington's Bible handbook (769–770). Wheaton, Ill.: Tyndale House Publishers.

2:4–8 Stones and the Stone. Christ is the cornerstone of our faith. We are smaller “living stones,” with which he is building a “spiritual temple”:
• Christ is a precious stone to those who believe in him (2:4–7; see Exod. 17:6; 1 Cor. 10:4; Eph. 2:20).
• But to those who reject him, he is a stone of destruction (2:7–8; see Dan. 2:34; Matt. 21:44; Rom. 9:32–33; 1 Cor. 1:23).
Though Israel now rejects Christ as their cornerstone, they will one day accept him as such (see Zech. 4:7).

© source where applicable

Carson, D. A. (1994). New Bible commentary : 21st century edition (4th ed.) (1 Pe 2:4–10). Leicester, England; Downers Grove, Ill., USA: Inter-Varsity Press.

Christians must grow together as well as individually, and Peter now raises this theme. He is so thrilled by the thought that he mixes his metaphors, but the argument is easy to follow. By constant communion with Christ, the living Stone, Christians will become like him, living stones. By itself a stone is of little use, but joined with others it becomes part of a building. A ‘living’ stone has a purpose to be part of the whole. Peter’s thought then switches from the structure (presumably the temple) to those who function in that building. Their responsibility as members of God’s spiritual household is two-fold: to worship, offering spiritual sacrifices (5) and to witness, declaring the praises (9).

© source where applicable

The "Stumbling Block" over which the UNBELIEVING stumble is CHRIST, who, to Christians, is the CORNER STONE or LIVING STONE.

[Cow Poke]

I will answer that.

praise be

If you have a hundred people that read a passage you will have the people who are walking in the spirit all read scripture the same way.

The Stumbling Block spoken of by Peter is Christ.

The others will be all over the map.

As represented by Frank and Jo.

[franktalk]

You're an idiot Frank,........

I am a fool for Christ who are you a fool for?

[franktalk]

The Stumbling Block spoken of by Peter is Christ.

And the Word. Just read it carefully. If you still don't see it then you are blind.

[lilpixieofterror]

Waiting for you to catch up with me..........

Might want to look out in front instead of behind you. You don't have the slightest clue what you are talking about and it shows. There is no reason to assume that Jesus is only taking about groups. There is no reason to assume that the solution to bad fruit is ALWAYS to rip it all apart. Again, do you understand the concepts of degrees? Do you understand the concept of extreme exaggeration and using extreme terms to describe a concept, which was common in the 1st century?

I'm not sure who the "we" are you are referring to. I will say that it is certainly your prerogative to not take an either/or attitude to the Bible.

It is also illogical and completely against logic and reason to take that either/or view of the Bible Jo. Jesus says to judge in some verses and not to in others, if you ignore context and ignore all of the words Jesus say, you would have to conclude Jesus is contradicting himself. When you take everything together, you find there is no contradiction at all.

I believe that such an attitude opens scripture to even more misinterpretations, as you are then unlimited in your choices and allow yourself to believe that it is teaching anything that you want it to. Thus, you turn the Bible into a stumbling block by wresting with scripture because you have created an attitude on how you are going to interpret the Bible. A pre-determined attitude does not provide a place for the Holy Ghost to guide you; and He is the ONLY one who can reveal spiritual Truth on the earth.

Nonsense Jo, the either/or, black and white thinking style is what creates so many stumbling blocks to begin with. I approach scripture by looking at it from as many angles as possible and getting as much information I can about it. I look at archeology, I look at anthropology, I look at sociology, I look at literacy clues, I look for the meaning beyond the mere words, etc. Sorry Jo, you couldn't be further from the truth. Your approach though leads to contradictions and absurdities because I see this right here. You make vague appeals to the Holy Spirit, but you do not seem able to answer anything I have brought forth with anything beyond, "You're just not spiritual enough!" which is a cop-out because you don't have anything beyond a vague feeling and if there is something I don't like, it is appealing to feeling without the thought to back up the feeling with. God appeals to all of our beings Jo, not just a small piece of ourselves.

I do not believe that the individual member is considered a Tree according to scripture, as I have already explained.

No Jo, you asserted it over and over again without explaining why. It refers to both us as people and to groups as a whole. You just don't want that aspect because you do not like how it destroys your argument. Last I checked though, fruits can be bared by us as individuals and us as a whole. So it is silly to automatically assume it is just about the whole and not the individual as well.

Love,

jo

Bless your heart.

[lilpixieofterror]

I am a fool for Christ who are you a fool for?

Oh you are fool to somebody, but it isn't to Christ.

[lilpixieofterror]

While you're laughing, Jo, you might take a look at a broader context of research on the text. Here are just a few samples....

Schreiner, T. R. (2007). Vol. 37: 1, 2 Peter, Jude (electronic ed.). Logos Library System; The New American Commentary (111). Nas=hville: Broadman & Holman Publishers.

2:8 Verse 8 continues the thought from v. 7. We can summarize the verses as follows: Those who disbelieve stumble over the stone, who is Christ. They stumble over Christ because they refuse to believe in him and obey him. People who stumble and disobey are responsible for their refusal to trust in Christ, and yet God has appointed, without himself being morally responsible for the sin of unbelievers, that they will both disobey and stumble.
The stone that sits at the head of the corner is one over which the disbelieving stumble and fall.

© source where applicable

Jamieson, R., Fausset, A. R., Fausset, A. R., Brown, D., & Brown, D. (1997). A commentary, critical and explanatory, on the Old and New Testaments (1 Pe 2:8). Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

8. stone of stumbling, &c.—quoted from Is 8:14. Not merely they stumbled, in that their prejudices were offended; but their stumbling implies the judicial punishment of their reception of Messiah; they hurt themselves in stumbling over the corner-stone, as “stumble” means in Je 13:16; Da 11:19.

© source where applicable

Walls, D., & Anders, M. (1999). Vol. 11: I & II Peter, I, II & III John, Jude. Holman New Testament Commentary; Holman Reference (30). Nashville, TN: Broadman & Holman Publishers.

2:6–8. Peter wove together two strands of Old Testament prophecy to further illustrate the centrality of Jesus Christ in the life of the individual Christian and the corporate church. He drew the picture of the precious cornerstone from Isaiah 28:16 and the rejected capstone from Psalm 118:22. The cornerstone or foundation stone established the design and structure of the building. The capstone might describe a foundation stone or, more likely, the topmost piece, the finishing or crowning touch to the building. The point is that from beginning to end, the church is built on Jesus Christ. Jesus is both the foundation cornerstone on which his church is built and the capstone up to which it grows. Jesus Christ is always the foundation of all that the individual Christian—as well as the church as a whole—believes.

© source where applicable

Wuest, K. S. (1997). Wuest's word studies from the Greek New Testament : For the English reader (1 Pe 2:8). Grand Rapids: Eerdmans.

The words “a stone of stumbling” are the translation of lithos (λιθος), “a loose stone in the path,” and proskommatos (προσκομματος) meaning “to cut against,” which altogether mean “an obstacle against which one strikes.” The words “rock of offence” are from petra (πετρα), “a ledge rising out of the ground,” and skandalou, “a trap set to trip one.” Our word “scandal” comes from the latter word. These who are disobedient (the literal Greek has it “non-persuasable”) are appointed to stumble at the Word, which is the penalty for refusal to believe it. “By faith we understand” (Heb. 11:3), is the God-ordained way. Thus, unbelievers find the Living Stone, which is precious to believers, an obstacle against which they strike, and a scandal, that which offends them.

© source where applicable

The Pulpit Commentary: 1 Peter. 2004 (H. D. M. Spence-Jones, Ed.) (71). Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

Ver. 8.—And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence. St. Peter combines Isa. 8:14 with big first quotations, as St. Paul also does (Rom. 9:33), both apostles quoting from the Hebrew, not from the Septuagint, which is quite different, inserting two negatives. The living Stone is not only made the Head of the corner to the confusion of the disobedient, but becomes also to their destruction a Stone of stumbling; they fall on that Stone, and are broken (Matt. 21:44).

© source where applicable

Lea, T. D. (1998). The General Letters. In D. S. Dockery (Ed.), Holman concise Bible commentary: Simple, straightforward commentary on every book of the Bible (D. S. Dockery, Ed.) (636–637). Nashville, TN: Broadman & Holman Publishers.

Peter used three images to describe the church in this section. First, he portrayed the church as a living body that gave sacrificial service to God. Christ was a life-giving Stone who enabled His followers to produce such spiritual sacrifices as obedience (Rom. 12:1), praise, and practical ministry (Heb. 13:15–16). Second, he described the church as a building or structure founded on Christ as the cornerstone. He quoted Old Testament passages from Isaiah 8:14; 28:16 and Psalm 118:22 to show that Christ was a foundation stone for believers and a rock which caused tripping for unbelievers. Third, he used the language of Exodus 19:5–6 and Hosea 2:23 to portray believers as a select nation reflecting the glories of God. God had fashioned special recipients of His mercy from those who previously never belonged to anyone.

© source where applicable

Willmington, H. L. (1997). Willmington's Bible handbook (769–770). Wheaton, Ill.: Tyndale House Publishers.

2:4–8 Stones and the Stone. Christ is the cornerstone of our faith. We are smaller “living stones,” with which he is building a “spiritual temple”:
• Christ is a precious stone to those who believe in him (2:4–7; see Exod. 17:6; 1 Cor. 10:4; Eph. 2:20).
• But to those who reject him, he is a stone of destruction (2:7–8; see Dan. 2:34; Matt. 21:44; Rom. 9:32–33; 1 Cor. 1:23).
Though Israel now rejects Christ as their cornerstone, they will one day accept him as such (see Zech. 4:7).

© source where applicable

Carson, D. A. (1994). New Bible commentary : 21st century edition (4th ed.) (1 Pe 2:4–10). Leicester, England; Downers Grove, Ill., USA: Inter-Varsity Press.

Christians must grow together as well as individually, and Peter now raises this theme. He is so thrilled by the thought that he mixes his metaphors, but the argument is easy to follow. By constant communion with Christ, the living Stone, Christians will become like him, living stones. By itself a stone is of little use, but joined with others it becomes part of a building. A ‘living’ stone has a purpose to be part of the whole. Peter’s thought then switches from the structure (presumably the temple) to those who function in that building. Their responsibility as members of God’s spiritual household is two-fold: to worship, offering spiritual sacrifices (5) and to witness, declaring the praises (9).

© source where applicable

The "Stumbling Block" over which the UNBELIEVING stumble is CHRIST, who, to Christians, is the CORNER STONE or LIVING STONE.

Jo doesn't need books! She has the Holy Spirit to tell her everything (even though her interpretations sound like somebody living in the 21st century, not the 1st who has no clue about context, among many other things). Don't you see CP, we're just not 'spiritual enough' to understand.

[lilpixieofterror]

So, how do you determine which people are "walking in the spirit" and which ones are "all over the map"?

By how much they disagree with Frank about things...

[Xru]

Oh you are fool to somebody, but it isn't to Christ.

lpotXru

[franktalk]

So who then is the Word? (eta. we'll address how the Pope comes into any authority we address the Word)

The Word is the message from the Father. Which Christ spoke.

John 5:19
19Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

But that message can only be received spiritually.

John 6:26
Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.

If miracles and Christ standing before them could not move the people then what can? Only when your spirit is moved will one see. The same is true of scripture. One will not see until moved by the spirit.