Debating one who thinks "evilbible.com" is a reliable source

[ApologiaPhoenix]

I will sometimes watch a video to pacify an atheist, but it's usually same-old, same-old. I instead prefer listening to Podcasts, such as a lot of N.T. Wright lately. Great thing to do late at night is to be playing on the DS or PSP and listening to a podcast at the same time.

Now to move on to SOJ.

I notice some things here.

First off, you claim that JPH's behavior is driving you away. With that, you are telling me your assessment of whether Christianity is true or not is based on someone's behavior. The problem is that the way to assess whether it is true or not is to determine if Jesus rose from the dead. Let us suppose you are right about JPH, which you are not. Let's suppose he is a colossal jerk with an ego the size of Texas. Okay. So what? How does that prove Jesus did not rise from the dead? If you are really interested in truth, just because someone is a jerk won't faze you. If you are interested in emotions, as fundies are, it will.

Second, with the Hosea prophecy in 11:1, I suggest a different way of looking at it. Note that we begin with the historical foundation in the genealogy and then we get to living in the land of Canaan followed by going to Egypt, then coming out of Egypt, getting baptized, being tempted in the wilderness, and then going up on the mountain for a lesson on the law.

Sound familiar?

I contend that Matthew sees Jesus as the true Israel and Jesus is succeeding where Israel failed. You might contend that baptism doesn't play much of a part, but in 1 Cor. 10, Paul talks about how the Jews were baptized in the Red Sea crossing. That idea was there. Hence, when historically Israel went down to Egypt and was called out, Matthew sees Jesus as the true Israel who goes down and is called out and this culminates in the grand treatise on the law, the Sermon on the Mount.

Now a final question. Why is it that you have gone to atheism? If you want to abandon Christianity, well okay. It's a bad choice, but that is yours. Why though do you have the belief that atheism is true automatically? Why not be a deist?

[Tanakh Keeper]

Baptized in the Red Sea?? Even if you assume, that anyone getting wet is automatically a baptism, that didn't happen here. The sea split, the Hebrews kept dry during the entire crossing.

[jpholding]

Baptized in the Red Sea?? Even if you assume, that anyone getting wet is automatically a baptism, that didn't happen here. The sea split, the Hebrews kept dry during the entire crossing.

It's this thing called a "simile". You might want to check the Tanakh, it has a few of them.

[Chrawnus]

It's this thing called a "simile". You might want to check the Tanakh, it has a few of them.

I think you mispelt "smile".

[jpholding]

I think you mispelt "smile".

No, I mispelt "slime".

[Chrawnus]

No, I mispelt "slime".

"Potato potahto."

[Rational Gaze]

It's this thing called a "simile". You might want to check the Tanakh, it has a few of them.

Quit denying inerrancy!

[Tanakh Keeper]

It didn't match.

[ApologiaPhoenix]

Do we need to spell out that it's nonesssential that the Israelites got wet?

[jpholding]

It didn't match.

Then may I recommend you try eHarmony?

[Chrawnus]

It didn't match.

Longenecker, Richard N. Biblical Exegesis in the Apostolic Period. Grand Rapids, Mich: W.B. Eerdmans, 1999. Print. p.101-102

Paul also reflects his rabbinic training in certain of the biblical themes he employs. 1 Cor 10:1-4 is particularly significant here, with its reference to the Red Sea experience as a baptism...That Judaism understood the Exodus as involving a baptism is implied in some of the discussions on proselyte baptism. Proselytes were required to be circumcised, baptized, and offer their first sacrifice - and in that order, according to the Beth Hillel (whose ruling became dominant) - for "as your forefathers entered into the Covenant only by circumcision, immersion and the sprinkling of the blood, so shall they enter the Covenant only by circumcision, immersion and the sprinkling of the blood."³⁴ To the query, "But whence do we know the immersion?" the answer is given: "It is written, 'And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people' [Exod 24:8], and there can be no sprinkling without immersion."³⁵
Probably, therefore, judging from the apostle's rather abrupt introduction of the episode into the argument as though it were self-evident, Paul in 1Cor 10:1-2 is simply developing in Christian fashion what he learned in catechism at the feet of Gamaliel: that the legitimacy of proselyte baptism is defensible in terms of understanding the Exodus as involving a baptism.³⁶

34. Quoting b Ker 9a; cf. b Yeb 46a.
35. Or, as b Ker 9a; b Yeb 46a reads literally: "and there is a tradition that there is no sprinkling without immersion."
36. Cf. F. Gavin, The Jewish Antecedents of the Christian Sacraments. New York: KTAV, 1969 (repr. of 1928 edition), 26-58; J. Daniélou, The Bible and the Liturgy. London: SPCK, 1960 (from Bible et Liturgie, 1950), 88-90; J. Jeremias, "Paulus als Hillelit," 90-91.

© source where applicable

[jpholding]

Oops. Disastrous disconnect between Palestinian Judaism and modern Judaiam again.

[Mountain Man]

So did ShockOfAtheism do a runner on us? I haven't seen him around for about a week. Maybe he was shocked to find he wasn't going to get far around here with fundy arguments.

[Chrawnus]

So did ShockOfAtheism do a runner on us? I haven't seen him around for about a week. Maybe he was shocked to find he wasn't going to get far around here with fundy arguments.

Hopefully the reason he's not responded is because he's actually busy reading some of the books in Holding's list. I'm not very optimistic though.

[Howze]

I just had an interesting insight regarding the Gospels. They are a re-enactment of the birth of Israel as a nation.
First Jesus is called out of Egypt.
Next he is baptised - or symbolically passes through the Red Sea.
Next he spends 40 days in the wilderness fasting - just like Israel except it was 40 years
Lastly he call the 12 disciples to become the new nation of Israel!

Never saw this before.
Interesting thread thanks for all the interesting comments guys.