Debating one who thinks "evilbible.com" is a reliable source

[jpholding]

I'm aware of how it works. I was wanting him to get an abstract for his arguments and rebuttals.

I don't do no stinkin' "abstract". This is not your playpen debate.org or whatever it is. Real scholarship offers articles; abstracts are for sissies when it comes to debate. Their only purpose is to catch reader interest, not open a debate.

The whole article is my first statement. Get back to us in 2015 when you're done with a rebuttal.

[Chrawnus]

The whole article is my first statement. Get back to us in 2015 when you're done with a rebuttal.

Silly Turkel. The world is going to end on the 21st of December this year, he won't have time to write a rebuttal.

[princesa]

And of course, as you know very well, should anyone's attitude change from defiant declarations to sincere and humble questions, and be accompanied by a simple admission of error....the atmosphere will change immediately.

I'm sure this is the case. From what I've read here, he appears just to be asking questions, where his only offense is being ignorant of the topic at hand. He's what CS Lewis would refer to as a "man, almost a boy". Sometimes the spirit and mind tug at each other, wherein one is ready to submit, the other is pulling back, needing more information. The passion to learn about God is there and that's a noble passion for a 17 year old.

SOA, how did you manage to have an issue with NT writers misusing the OT? That's a very general sort of remark one makes when they are listening to or reading the opposing team for far too long without a balance. No offense intended. Chrawnus has given you great links to use as resources specific to your question. Read through them and then if you are still in need of clarification come ask specific questions. Might be a good way to do things.

[Cybelle Hawke]

Say what??? You must be thinking of someone else. I don't buy into that "granted by grace and mercy through the Holy Spirit" routine save in the most general sort of way that has no bearing on specific activities.

I was not selling but telling!





I studied for it.
Your point being what? So was Joan of Arc. So was King Tut. So are a large number of people in our prisons for murder.
I'm sure those 17 year olds in prison would appreciate that sentiment, as would their victims. Murderers of souls, especially a 17 year old John Loftus, will find things different when a dose of humility enters their approach.
I'll add for the record -- which should be obvious -- that I only just discovered he was 17 in the last few hours. But that doesn't change a thing. If he's on Messiah Truth he's known far worse delivered by users there like Sophiee1, and unless he's gone around correcting them, I don't want to hear it.
No thanks. Answered that too many times already.



sooo poor fast food McDonalds apo

------------------- over and out

[Mountain Man]

[Chrawnus]

I'm just as confused as MM is.

[jpholding]

Silly Turkel. The world is going to end on the 21st of December this year, he won't have time to write a rebuttal.

Sure hope not. We're supposed to have our 22nd anniversary the day after that.

[jpholding]

I'm sure this is the case....

Then let's test it, shall we?

Here's my offer:

I will give SOA a bibliography of 10 books to read. Among them will be Longenecker's book on Jewish exegesis of the first century. But I have others as well by credible scholars.

If he leaveS here, and then will read them, and then comes back and admits that his "education" was incomplete, that will serve for an admission to change the atmosphere.

However, if he a) refuses or b) comes back ranting and calling scholars like Longenecker brainwashed, ignorant, etc. -- and you know well enough how that happens (see what is being done to Bart Ehrman right now!) -- then it will be proven that he is NOT merely guilty of being ignorant.

I'll even find out what libraries near him have the books -- and buy the first one used for him from Amazon! No cost to him!

Now let's see what wisdom is proved right by her children -- eh???

[jpholding]

I'm just as confused as MM is.

It's called WUT?ITHAWTIHADAPOYNTTHERDAHHHHH....

[ShockOfAtheism]

This debate focuses on whether or not the New Testament misuses the Old Testament prophecies in order to prove Jesus is the Messiah. I thank J. P. Holding for agreeing to this topic and for those who have suggested the organization of the thread and discussion a little bit better. I would also like to thank theologyweb for providing this platform.

The hardest part of this discussion is what to leave out as I can easily write a 100 page book on this issue alone!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Definitions

We need to define some things before we get started:

1) When I say that the New Testament misuses the Old Testament, I specifically mean that the NT misquotes part of the OT in order to make that portion of the OT point to the coming of Jesus, when in reality, the original writers did not even mean what the NT says that it meant.

Slaughter of the Innocent

During the birth of Jesus, Matthew reports that Herod slaughtered many innocent babies (two years and under) because of the thread of his kingship. Matthew reports that it was to fulfill a prophecy Jeremiah said:

2:16 Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men.
2:17 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying,
2:18 In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.

The problem: Matthew quotes Jeremiah 31:15 but the verse actually refers to the Babylonian captivity via the next verses. Therefore, Jeremiah never even meant it to be talking about a future event:

Jeremiah 31

31:16 Thus saith the LORD; Refrain thy voice from weeping, and thine eyes from tears: for thy work shall be rewarded, saith the LORD; and they shall come again from the land of the enemy.
31:17 And there is hope in thine end, saith the LORD, that thy children shall come again to their own border.

Sound like a slaughter of the babies? No.

Off to Egypt!

In order to escape the slaughter above, Jesus fleas into Egypt to fulfill yet another "prophecy." This time, it is Hosea 11:1, and this is pretty disturbing when we read the entire context of Hosea 11.

Matthew
2:14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

Yet what does Hosea actually mean?

Hosea
11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.
11:2 As they called them, so they went from them: they sacrificed unto Baalim, and burned incense to graven images.
11:3 I taught Ephraim also to go, taking them by their arms; but they knew not that I healed them.

Ah, so Hosea is actually talking about Israel; not Jesus! And in fact, Hosea could not possibly have been talking about Jesus as it mentions the sins of Israel in the very next verse (so much for Biblical inerrancy).

Luke 24:46

2:46 He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day,"

Yet there is nowhere in the OT that says anything remotely like that!

The Spirit of the Lord is upon someone!

Luke
4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
4:20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

When reading Isaiah, it becomes clear that he is not referring to Jesus. Likewise, it is disturbing that Jesus actually interpolates the phrase "recovering of sight to the blind", which does not appear in Isaiah.

Isaiah.
61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

Misquote of Psalm 78:2

Psalm 78 has long been recognized as a "messianic" prophecy in Christian circles; though Matthew misquotes it!

Matthew
13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

Psalm
78:2"I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old: Which we have heard and known, and our fathers have told us."

So much more to cover, but thats enough for now!

[ShockOfAtheism]

Then let's test it, shall we?

Here's my offer:

I will give SOA a bibliography of 10 books to read. Among them will be Longenecker's book on Jewish exegesis of the first century. But I have others as well by credible scholars.

If he leaveS here, and then will read them, and then comes back and admits that his "education" was incomplete, that will serve for an admission to change the atmosphere.

However, if he a) refuses or b) comes back ranting and calling scholars like Longenecker brainwashed, ignorant, etc. -- and you know well enough how that happens (see what is being done to Bart Ehrman right now!) -- then it will be proven that he is NOT merely guilty of being ignorant.

I'll even find out what libraries near him have the books -- and buy the first one used for him from Amazon! No cost to him!

Now let's see what wisdom is proved right by her children -- eh???

I will gladly accept your challenge.

[jpholding]

I will gladly accept your challenge.

Excellent!

I will compile a list of 10 books by Monday and then work out the other details such as ordering the first one and finding the libraries in your area.

As far as your list -- the article by Miller needs to be read...because your objections are all red herrings. You need to read the books I will prepare a list of first.

But...you get ONE hint where you're going wrong on these...



That will be all.

[ShockOfAtheism]

Excellent!

I will compile a list of 10 books by Monday and then work out the other details such as ordering the first one and finding the libraries in your area.

As far as your list -- the article by Miller needs to be read...because your objections are all red herrings. You need to read the books I will prepare a list of first.

But...you get ONE hint where you're going wrong on these...



That will be all.

I look forward to seeing the list. Would you like a summary of each book?

[Chrawnus]

Since Turkel is such a silly person I decided to properly embed the videoclip for him (silly Turkel should know that one should use the [ Video ] tag from the forum, and not the embed-link provided by YT)

EDIT - Scratch that, Turkel seems to know what he's doing.

[RumTumTugger]

If this is how Christian scholars behave, then I certainly don't want to reconvert. I spent a lot of time looking for answers to my questions; and to no avail, none of them were satisfying.

if you go to other fundies like the church you appear to have come from it is no wonder you didn't get satisfactory answers. Try using the brain God gave you instead of accepting other peoples opinions.

Fair enough. This of course, begs questions which I'll post in a later thread.



*facepalm*

get rid of your fundy mentality first before you do the study is my suggestion.