Would it really matter if LDS were in error . . .

[OtherCheek]

Is Frank a TBM, OC?

I assume so. As far as I know, he has a growing and vibrant testimony, and is not considering leaving the Church because of unanswered questions.

[franktalk]

So how can we trust you when you say to 'trust nothing in the world'? Are you not seeing the contradiction in your words Frank?

It is by the contradiction that we understand the correct path which is not of men. Your logic knows by common sense that what I said makes no sense because I stated to not trust what I stated. But how does one seek an answer to a contradiction of that nature? That answer lays outside of man. And outside of man's logic. Only when one has a foundation of truth from God can one converse with others who have that same communication. But that conversation seems strange and full of error when viewed by the world. The things of God make no sense to someone who has embraced the world.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Many claim to have spiritual discernment. I claim that as well. But don't trust me and don't trust anyone who says that they too have God's voice in their head. You must develop that relationship yourself and only then you will be able to tell who else has discernment. I can post what I have found in scripture that describes that path for me. But my words can be taken many ways. I claim no ability to direct anyone to a correct path. It is your own desire which can lead you.

[Cow Poke]

Many claim to have spiritual discernment. I claim that as well.

And, with nearly every post, you prove this false. Contradictions, Frank. Contradictions.

[OtherCheek]

I started a thread on TBMs... I'd really like to know when a Mormon stops being a TBM. Having THOUGHTS about leaving the Mormon Church disqualifies somebody from being a TBM? I think this is worth discussing.

I was wondering if you could kindly answer my question (which was important to me), which was:

Have you ever asked a TBM (besides me) your question regarding the "subjectivity of the TEST"?
Have you asked anyone who is NOT considering leaving the Church?

Thanks.

[Cow Poke]

I was wondering if you could kindly answer my question (which was important to me), which was:

Have you ever asked a TBM (besides me) your question regarding the "subjectivity of the TEST"?
Have you asked anyone who is NOT considering leaving the Church?

Thanks.

Well, quite honestly, OC -- that's why I started the thread! I needed to know what a TBM is. These people are still quite active in your Church -- we're discussing -- no promise or commitment or plan yet to bail, and I'm not pressing them!

I'm asking honest questions, and trusting the Holy Spirit for the results. I would have to admit that the girl in SLC was not, according to your definition, a TBM, but I'm thinking the one in San Diego was. Then these two families -- I'm almost thinking you wouldn't consider EITHER of them TBMs.

ETA: Sorry, just read the rest of your post --- the "not thinking of leaving the Church" --- I don't think either of these couples were really considering that until I came along.

[Bill the Cat]

I was wondering if you could kindly answer my question (which was important to me), which was:

Have you ever asked a TBM (besides me) your question regarding the "subjectivity of the TEST"?
Have you asked anyone who is NOT considering leaving the Church?

Thanks.

I have. Well over a dozen times with different people in the past year. They simply restate the challenge without addressing the fact that it is self-confirming and subjective.

[OtherCheek]

ETA: Sorry, just read the rest of your post --- the "not thinking of leaving the Church" --- I don't think either of these couples were really considering that until I came along.

Is your answer, then, that you have not asked anyone who is "not thinking of leaving the Church", this question regarding the subjectivity of the test? (Before you asked me)? That is what I am reading so far...that I am the first person with an unwavering testimony that you have asked this question.

And let me get this straight: Did you come along seeking them or did they come along seeking you for help in leaving the Church?

Thanks

[Cow Poke]

Is your answer, then, that you have not asked anyone who is "not thinking of leaving the Church", this question regarding the subjectivity of the test? (Before you asked me)? That is what I am reading so far...that I am the first person with an unwavering testimony that you have asked this question.

That's not a "yes or no" question, OC... I'm trying to answer as honestly as I can... there are 4 separate incidents where I'm talking to people who have left, or are in the process of leaving, or are THINKING about leaving the Mormon Church.

The first one, I did not seek out at all. My mom (Lord rest her soul) wrote a book of poetry, and I, with her permission, posted most of her poems on a website. There was a place for people to ask permission to use her poems in their own publications or bulletins or whatever, and this Mormon lady in SLC contacted us for that purpose. My wife and her became, as it were, "pen pals", and one thing led to another... I really don't want to get too specific here.... But I (we) didn't seek her out at all --- I believe, as does she, that God led her to us.

The more recent two couples -- I developed a friendship with this man, and over a period of time, we became friends. AT THE TIME we met, and for the first part of our friendship, there was no indication whatsoever that he was considering leaving the Church.

You can whip me and beat me, and I can't tell you more than what I know... as FAR AS I KNOW, he was a TBM when I asked about the test.

HE introduced me to the other couple, to whom HE had been speaking, and AS FAR AS I KNOW, they were TBMs as well. But by YOUR definition, I'm not so sure. They had "questions".

And let me get this straight: Did you come along seeking them or did they come along seeking you for help in leaving the Church?

Thanks

I believe God led them to me, OC. I know you'll see it differently. But that's why I'm "learning".

[OtherCheek]

that's not a "yes or no" question, oc... I'm trying to answer as honestly as i can... There are 4 separate incidents where i'm talking to people who have left, or are in the process of leaving, or are thinking about leaving the mormon church.

The first one, i did not seek out at all. My mom (lord rest her soul) wrote a book of poetry, and i, with her permission, posted most of her poems on a website. There was a place for people to ask permission to use her poems in their own publications or bulletins or whatever, and this mormon lady in slc contacted us for that purpose. My wife and her became, as it were, "pen pals", and one thing led to another... I really don't want to get too specific here.... But i (we) didn't seek her out at all --- i believe, as does she, that god led her to us.

The more recent two couples -- i developed a friendship with this man, and over a period of time, we became friends. At the time we met, and for the first part of our friendship, there was no indication whatsoever that he was considering leaving the church.

You can whip me and beat me, and i can't tell you more than what i know... As far as i know, he was a tbm when i asked about the test.

He introduced me to the other couple, to whom he had been speaking, and as far as i know, they were tbms as well. But by your definition, i'm not so sure. They had "questions".



I believe god led them to me, oc. I know you'll see it differently. But that's why i'm "learning".

ok Perhaps these people who are considering leaving the Church, are also astounded at my answers regarding the "TEST" because they no longer believe in the truth of the "TEST" themselves and are astounded that I do believe in it. I think that is a good possibility.

[One Bad Pig]

ok Perhaps these people who are considering leaving the Church, are also astounded at my answers regarding the "TEST" because they no longer believe in the truth of the "TEST" themselves and are astounded that I do believe in it. I think that is a good possibility.

Considering you only just provided the "TEST", I doubt that your answers regarding that are what is astounding them.

[franktalk]

And, with nearly every post, you prove this false. Contradictions, Frank. Contradictions.

You may fool some people but you don't fool me. Of all of the people you saved from the LDS faith how many do you still communicate with? Of those how strong is their faith and do they indeed keep the commandments? Are their children on the path to righteousness? Surely you keep tabs on your flock? There may be some scripture that you might want to learn.

Matthew 5:19

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

The danger in destroying ones faith in a church to push them to another is that the person could lose their love for God. If they do so because of your actions then you will be held to a very high standard. I stay away from conversations that would destroy faith with anyone I meet. These boards are different. People come here looking for conflict. Here we should let the light of day shine on our doctrine. The doctrine of God does not need my support. Nothing I say means a thing, it is the witness of the Holy Spirit that will lead to truth. If you think the Holy Spirit guides you then do what it says. But if you are driven by your own desires then you should take another path. God knows the truth of your heart.

Ask yourself if you love the people you turn from the church or do you love turning people from one faith to another? In your heart do you say that you turned them to the correct faith? In your heart do you say it is I that laid out the arguments? In your heart do you acquire pride in your accomplishment? In your conversations with these people do you describe the truth of your faith or do you describe the falsehood of their faith? If indeed you describe falsehoods then your truth is not what you teach. Lay out your truth and see what happens.

[Cow Poke]

You may fool some people but you don't fool me. Of all of the people you saved from the LDS faith how many do you still communicate with? Of those how strong is their faith and do they indeed keep the commandments? Are their children on the path to righteousness? Surely you keep tabs on your flock?

The two individuals that I know for sure have left the Mormon Church are quite happy in their new Churches, and they are living for the Lord.

You might could turn down the "high mindedness" just a wee tad, Frank. It's not very becoming.

There may be some scripture that you might want to learn.

Matthew 5:19

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

You might should have waited for the answer before bloviating, Frank. And that particular Scripture I had memorized as a child.

The danger in destroying ones faith in a church to push them to another is that the person could lose their love for God. If they do so because of your actions then you will be held to a very high standard. I stay away from conversations that would destroy faith with anyone I meet. These boards are different. People come here looking for conflict. Here we should let the light of day shine on our doctrine. The doctrine of God does not need my support. Nothing I say means a thing, it is the witness of the Holy Spirit that will lead to truth. If you think the Holy Spirit guides you then do what it says. But if you are driven by your own desires then you should take another path. God knows the truth of your heart.

God led them to me, Frank, I didn't seek them out. And they were searching for Light and Truth, and they found it. No more living in deception.

Ask yourself if you love the people you turn from the church or do you love turning people from one faith to another?

I didn't turn them from the Church, Frank, I led them to Jesus.

In your heart do you say that you turned them to the correct faith? In your heart do you say it is I that laid out the arguments? In your heart do you acquire pride in your accomplishment? In your conversations with these people do you describe the truth of your faith or do you describe the falsehood of their faith? If indeed you describe falsehoods then your truth is not what you teach. Lay out your truth and see what happens.

Well, actually, Frank -- that's exactly what happened -- I laid out the Truth, and they recognized that they had been deceived. I didn't have to point out a single thing that they believed that was "false" --- The Holy Spirit of the Living God was at work, and they came to a better understanding of the Savior.

You should be rejoicing!

Bless your heart.

[Cow Poke]

Is your answer, then, that you have not asked anyone who is "not thinking of leaving the Church", this question regarding the subjectivity of the test? (Before you asked me)? That is what I am reading so far...that I am the first person with an unwavering testimony that you have asked this question.

And let me get this straight: Did you come along seeking them or did they come along seeking you for help in leaving the Church?

Thanks

I think we're having this conversation in two different places, OC, which can be kinda confusing.

But, the fact is, I didn't seek out ANY of these people. Please check the other thread, OK?

[franktalk]

Cow Poke,

I have met many people who used to be LDS. Most of them have joined the ranks of the world and seek not the Spirit of God. Many have become atheist and live and worship at the altar of science. I am sure they would love you and your crusade against the church. As for my tone you may want to keep any of those remarks to yourself. You know glass houses and all. I do not believe you when you say that people have great faith who leave the church. Like Thomas I will have to see them with my own eyes and touch them with my own hand before I will believe you. Nothing personal, just being careful you know.

[OtherCheek]

Considering you only just provided the "TEST", I doubt that your answers regarding that are what is astounding them.

I didn't provide the test. Do you know what the test is? See Moroni 10:3-5. That is the test or the invitation to come and know that the Book of Mormon is true. Not everyone is spiritually prepared to take that invitation seriously, however, and no, I didn't provide it. And CP brought it up a couple of days ago in one of these threads of recent date. And after giving my answers and my opinions about the test, I am told by some here that some Mormon lurkers on this forum, (who are considering leaving the Church anyway) are disappointed in my answers.