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What is hell like?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
    CARM has an article on the different degrees of punishment in hell:

    https://carm.org/questions/other-que...unishment-hell

    To me a mental punishment would be greater than a physical punishment -- knowing I made a mistake and it was too late to do anything about it.
    I am in intense physical pain every day, and I can tell you that emotional and mental anguish is far worse than any physical pain I've experienced. Having one on top of the other can get pretty close to unbearable.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
      I am in intense physical pain every day, and I can tell you that emotional and mental anguish is far worse than any physical pain I've experienced. Having one on top of the other can get pretty close to unbearable.
      Have you ever done something wrong in the past and you still beat yourself up for it years and years afterwards? I can be really brutal on myself. We know we are forgiven by God, but it is hard to forgive ourselves.

      People who listen to errant pastors, rabbis, imans, have a responsibility to check out what they say in order to know if it is the truth, so they have some responsibility for their choices and can't blame it all on their spiritual leaders.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
        I think the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus shows convincingly that there is physical punishment involved. However, it's likely that there are gradations in hell, and it's also likely that the Rich Man in that story was on the worse end of the scale.
        I'm far from sure how literally to take parables, but if we take this one literally it doesn't quite show eternal punishment.

        That parable shows the rich man in Hades, not Gehenna. It's temporary. That it isn't after the final judgement is clear from that fact that he wants to send a message back to his brothers, who are still alive and clearly haven't been judged.

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        • #19
          If you wanted to take the parable of the rich man and Lazarus literally, it could not represent the final state of punishment. The final judgment would not have taken place because people are still alive in this life on earth within the parable.
          "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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          • #20
            Yeah, but why would the final punishment be lighter and easier than the temporary punishment?

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
              Yeah, but why would the final punishment be lighter and easier than the temporary punishment?
              You're assuming that the parable actually does accurately depict the intermediate state instead of just being a parable. There are good reasons to dispute that. For instance, few people would hold that the saved can communicate with the damned. I don't see any more reason to assume it is a literal story than I do to think that Judges 9:8 teaches that trees can literally talk.

              I'd be interested in doing a formal debate on this.
              Last edited by KingsGambit; 07-05-2017, 08:09 PM.
              "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                I am in intense physical pain every day, and I can tell you that emotional and mental anguish is far worse than any physical pain I've experienced. Having one on top of the other can get pretty close to unbearable.
                Whilst I cannot say that I am experientially acquainted with chronic bodily pain, without elaborating, I can say that I do have personal familiarity with ongoing psychological suffering.
                For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  [A]ll I know is it is someplace nobody wants to spend eternity in[.]
                  Your assertion presupposes (1) the irreversibility of eschatological punishment, and (2) the deathlessness (i.e. immortality) of those who will be cast off into the Gehenna of fire. Universalists contest the former supposition; annihilationists argue against the latter.
                  For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by The Remonstrant View Post
                    Your assertion presupposes (1) the irreversibility of eschatological punishment, and (2) the deathlessness (i.e. immortality) of those who will be cast off into the Gehenna of fire. Universalists contest the former supposition; annihilationists argue against the latter.
                    Yes it does. Because there is no indication otherwise in the bible as far as I can see.

                    Rev 14:9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

                    Rev 20:10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

                    15Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

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                    • #25
                      I have read about many different descriptions of Hell - physical suffering, emotional shame and regret, annihilation, etc. I have realized that no matter which is correct, I don't want to spend eternity there.
                      "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                      "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        [A]ll I know is it [hell] is someplace nobody wants to spend eternity in[.]
                        Originally posted by The Remonstrant View Post
                        Your assertion presupposes (1) the irreversibility of eschatological punishment, and (2) the deathlessness (i.e. immortality) of those who will be cast off into the Gehenna of fire. Universalists contest the former supposition; annihilationists argue against the latter.
                        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        Yes[,] it does. Because there is no indication otherwise in the [B]ible[,] as far as I can see.
                        9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” (Revelation 14:9–11)[*]

                        And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:10)

                        Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:15)

                        [* All scriptural references are taken from the New International Version (2011).]
                        For an expansive, up-to-date study which demonstrates the scriptural support for the doctrine of annihilationism, see Edward William Fudge, The Fire That Consumes: A Biblical and Historical Study of the Doctrine of Final Punishment, 3rd ed. (Cambridge, UK: Lutterworth Press, 2012 / Eugene, OR: Cascade Books, 2011).

                        For a conditionalist perspective on Revelation 14:9–11, see Ralph G. Bowles, ‘Does Revelation 14:11 Teach Eternal Torment? Examining a Proof-text on Hell’, The Evangelical Quarterly 73.1 (Jan.–Mar. 2001): 21–36 (<https://biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/eq/2001-1_021.pdf>).*

                        I, too, share your belief that Scripture is finally determinative regarding whether a teaching is to be accepted or rejected – especially when the teaching concerns a matter as serious as the permanent state of a significant portion of humankind. I do not believe that the standard doctrine of endless torture should be abandoned haphazardly, on a whim, or primarily on emotional grounds. Personally, my shift away from the conventional view of eschatological punishment did not occur prior to studying the biblical and theological evidence for conditional immortality, but after.

                        In any case, I have no desire to debate the matter on this thread. My aim was simply to call attention to two of the fundamental presuppositions underlying the conventional understanding of the future punishment of the unrighteous. Perhaps some here will avail themselves of the resources recommended above and have their minds challenged.


                        * This essay was reprinted and included (with minor editorial revisions) in Rethinking Hell (2014). See Ralph G. Bowles, ‘Does Revelation 14:11 Teach Eternal Torment?’, in Rethinking Hell: Readings in Evangelical Conditionalism, ed. Christopher M. Date, Gregory G. Stump, and Joshua W. Anderson (Cambridge, UK: Lutterworth Press / Eugene, OR: Cascade Books, 2014), pp. 138–154.
                        For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by The Remonstrant View Post
                          For an expansive, up-to-date study which demonstrates the scriptural support for the doctrine of annihilationism, see Edward William Fudge, The Fire That Consumes: A Biblical and Historical Study of the Doctrine of Final Punishment, 3rd ed. (Cambridge, UK: Lutterworth Press, 2012 / Eugene, OR: Cascade Books, 2011).

                          For a conditionalist perspective on Revelation 14:9–11, see Ralph G. Bowles, ‘Does Revelation 14:11 Teach Eternal Torment? Examining a Proof-text on Hell’, The Evangelical Quarterly 73.1 (Jan.–Mar. 2001): 21–36 (<https://biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/eq/2001-1_021.pdf>).*

                          I, too, share your belief that Scripture is finally determinative regarding whether a teaching is to be accepted or rejected – especially when the teaching concerns a matter as serious as the permanent state of a significant portion of humankind. I do not believe that the standard doctrine of endless torture should be abandoned haphazardly, on a whim, or primarily on emotional grounds. Personally, my shift away from the conventional view of eschatological punishment did not occur prior to studying the biblical and theological evidence for conditional immortality, but after.

                          In any case, I have no desire to debate the matter on this thread. My aim was simply to call attention to two of the fundamental presuppositions underlying the conventional understanding of the future punishment of the unrighteous. Perhaps some here will avail themselves of the resources recommended above and have their minds challenged.


                          * This essay was reprinted and included (with minor editorial revisions) in Rethinking Hell (2014). See Ralph G. Bowles, ‘Does Revelation 14:11 Teach Eternal Torment?’, in Rethinking Hell: Readings in Evangelical Conditionalism, ed. Christopher M. Date, Gregory G. Stump, and Joshua W. Anderson (Cambridge, UK: Lutterworth Press / Eugene, OR: Cascade Books, 2014), pp. 138–154.
                          wel i dont know if hel iz a litural playce of fyer and brimstown oar knot but I dew gnow that it iz nowt a plac i whant to vizit.*




                          *I just wanted to give you some more pleasure in correcting my spelling and grammar.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                            Annas and Saphira being struck dead, the Philistine tumors, bear attacks, global flood, 10 plagues of Egypt etc. I don't see any evidence in the Bible that supports that God wouldn't use physical punishment, and a lot that shows He's used it in the past.
                            One could, I suppose, account for passages like these by saying that A & S died of heart attacks, and that the passage is a way of saying that because God is, in some sense, “behind” even heart attacks, that therefore, heart attacks can be regarded as a Divine punishment; but is that what St Luke, as an author a theologian, means to say here ? The point of the passage is lost, IMO, if it is not given full weight as a judgement passage, of which there seem to be several in Acts.

                            If there are such passages, this would agree with the theme in St Luke of Jesus as King. In the Gospel, St Luke interprets the Kingship of Jesus in the light of Psalm 72. In Acts, interpretation seems to be in the light of Psalm 2.

                            God as King in the NT is sometimes shown as Judge, activity which is bound up with His being King. The letters to the 7 churches, though Johannine rather than Lucan, are judgements on the churches in a book which is full of Divine judgements; so what is said in them is not far removed from this scene. Revelation and Acts both show God vindicating His Kingly rule by defeating opposition to it; and this is inextricably bound up with His vindication of His Messiah.
                            Last edited by Rushing Jaws; 12-29-2017, 04:41 AM.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              wel i dont know if hel iz a litural playce of fyer and brimstown oar knot but I dew gnow that it iz nowt a plac i whant to vizit.*




                              *I just wanted to give you some more pleasure in correcting my spelling and grammar.
                              For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
                                I have read about many different descriptions of Hell [—] physical suffering, emotional shame and regret, annihilation, etc. [—] I have realized that no matter which [view] is correct, I don't want to spend eternity there.
                                Yes, there is the heavenly kingdom to be gained and the Gehenna of fire to be shunned.
                                For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

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