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Thread: What is hell like?

  1. #21
    Professor KingsGambit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obsidian View Post
    Yeah, but why would the final punishment be lighter and easier than the temporary punishment?
    You're assuming that the parable actually does accurately depict the intermediate state instead of just being a parable. There are good reasons to dispute that. For instance, few people would hold that the saved can communicate with the damned. I don't see any more reason to assume it is a literal story than I do to think that Judges 9:8 teaches that trees can literally talk.

    I'd be interested in doing a formal debate on this.
    Last edited by KingsGambit; 07-06-2017 at 02:09 AM.
    I want something good to die for to make it beautiful to live.

  2. Amen The Remonstrant amen'd this post.
  3. #22
    tWebber The Remonstrant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
    I am in intense physical pain every day, and I can tell you that emotional and mental anguish is far worse than any physical pain I've experienced. Having one on top of the other can get pretty close to unbearable.
    Whilst I cannot say that I am experientially acquainted with chronic bodily pain, without elaborating, I can say that I do have personal familiarity with ongoing psychological suffering.
    ‘To say that God deliberately brings about a sinful human race so that he may [unconditionally] elect some to salvation, and then deliberately sends the nonelect to hell so that his saving gace may appear all the more glorious, is the opposite of grace.’
    —Jack W. Cottrell, ‘Responses to Robert L. Reymond’, in Chad Owen Brand (ed.), Perspectives on Election: Five Views (Nashville, TN: B&H Academic, 2006), p. 202, emphasis in original



  4. #23
    tWebber The Remonstrant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    [A]ll I know is it is someplace nobody wants to spend eternity in[.]
    Your assertion presupposes (1) the irreversibility of eschatological punishment, and (2) the deathlessness (i.e. immortality) of those who will be cast off into the Gehenna of fire. Universalists contest the former supposition; annihilationists argue against the latter.
    ‘To say that God deliberately brings about a sinful human race so that he may [unconditionally] elect some to salvation, and then deliberately sends the nonelect to hell so that his saving gace may appear all the more glorious, is the opposite of grace.’
    —Jack W. Cottrell, ‘Responses to Robert L. Reymond’, in Chad Owen Brand (ed.), Perspectives on Election: Five Views (Nashville, TN: B&H Academic, 2006), p. 202, emphasis in original



  5. #24
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Remonstrant View Post
    Your assertion presupposes (1) the irreversibility of eschatological punishment, and (2) the deathlessness (i.e. immortality) of those who will be cast off into the Gehenna of fire. Universalists contest the former supposition; annihilationists argue against the latter.
    Yes it does. Because there is no indication otherwise in the bible as far as I can see.

    Rev 14:9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

    Rev 20:10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    15Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

  6. #25
    tWebber Thoughtful Monk's Avatar
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    I have read about many different descriptions of Hell - physical suffering, emotional shame and regret, annihilation, etc. I have realized that no matter which is correct, I don't want to spend eternity there.
    "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

    My time to be on TWeb is unpredictable. It may take a few days for me to see your post and respond.

  7. Amen LostSheep, Jedidiah, Sparko, The Remonstrant amen'd this post.
  8. #26
    tWebber The Remonstrant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    [A]ll I know is it [hell] is someplace nobody wants to spend eternity in[.]
    Quote Originally Posted by The Remonstrant View Post
    Your assertion presupposes (1) the irreversibility of eschatological punishment, and (2) the deathlessness (i.e. immortality) of those who will be cast off into the Gehenna of fire. Universalists contest the former supposition; annihilationists argue against the latter.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    Yes[,] it does. Because there is no indication otherwise in the [B]ible[,] as far as I can see.

    9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” (Revelation 14:9–11)[*]

    And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:10)

    Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:15)

    [* All scriptural references are taken from the New International Version (2011).]
    For an expansive, up-to-date study which demonstrates the scriptural support for the doctrine of annihilationism, see Edward William Fudge, The Fire That Consumes: A Biblical and Historical Study of the Doctrine of Final Punishment, 3rd ed. (Cambridge, UK: Lutterworth Press, 2012 / Eugene, OR: Cascade Books, 2011).

    For a conditionalist perspective on Revelation 14:9–11, see Ralph G. Bowles, ‘Does Revelation 14:11 Teach Eternal Torment? Examining a Proof-text on Hell’, The Evangelical Quarterly 73.1 (Jan.–Mar. 2001): 21–36 (<https://biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/eq/2001-1_021.pdf>).*

    I, too, share your belief that Scripture is finally determinative regarding whether a teaching is to be accepted or rejected – especially when the teaching concerns a matter as serious as the permanent state of a significant portion of humankind. I do not believe that the standard doctrine of endless torture should be abandoned haphazardly, on a whim, or primarily on emotional grounds. Personally, my shift away from the conventional view of eschatological punishment did not occur prior to studying the biblical and theological evidence for conditional immortality, but after.

    In any case, I have no desire to debate the matter on this thread. My aim was simply to call attention to two of the fundamental presuppositions underlying the conventional understanding of the future punishment of the unrighteous. Perhaps some here will avail themselves of the resources recommended above and have their minds challenged.


    * This essay was reprinted and included (with minor editorial revisions) in Rethinking Hell (2014). See Ralph G. Bowles, ‘Does Revelation 14:11 Teach Eternal Torment?’, in Rethinking Hell: Readings in Evangelical Conditionalism, ed. Christopher M. Date, Gregory G. Stump, and Joshua W. Anderson (Cambridge, UK: Lutterworth Press / Eugene, OR: Cascade Books, 2014), pp. 138–154.
    ‘To say that God deliberately brings about a sinful human race so that he may [unconditionally] elect some to salvation, and then deliberately sends the nonelect to hell so that his saving gace may appear all the more glorious, is the opposite of grace.’
    —Jack W. Cottrell, ‘Responses to Robert L. Reymond’, in Chad Owen Brand (ed.), Perspectives on Election: Five Views (Nashville, TN: B&H Academic, 2006), p. 202, emphasis in original



  9. #27
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Remonstrant View Post
    For an expansive, up-to-date study which demonstrates the scriptural support for the doctrine of annihilationism, see Edward William Fudge, The Fire That Consumes: A Biblical and Historical Study of the Doctrine of Final Punishment, 3rd ed. (Cambridge, UK: Lutterworth Press, 2012 / Eugene, OR: Cascade Books, 2011).

    For a conditionalist perspective on Revelation 14:9–11, see Ralph G. Bowles, ‘Does Revelation 14:11 Teach Eternal Torment? Examining a Proof-text on Hell’, The Evangelical Quarterly 73.1 (Jan.–Mar. 2001): 21–36 (<https://biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/eq/2001-1_021.pdf>).*

    I, too, share your belief that Scripture is finally determinative regarding whether a teaching is to be accepted or rejected – especially when the teaching concerns a matter as serious as the permanent state of a significant portion of humankind. I do not believe that the standard doctrine of endless torture should be abandoned haphazardly, on a whim, or primarily on emotional grounds. Personally, my shift away from the conventional view of eschatological punishment did not occur prior to studying the biblical and theological evidence for conditional immortality, but after.

    In any case, I have no desire to debate the matter on this thread. My aim was simply to call attention to two of the fundamental presuppositions underlying the conventional understanding of the future punishment of the unrighteous. Perhaps some here will avail themselves of the resources recommended above and have their minds challenged.


    * This essay was reprinted and included (with minor editorial revisions) in Rethinking Hell (2014). See Ralph G. Bowles, ‘Does Revelation 14:11 Teach Eternal Torment?’, in Rethinking Hell: Readings in Evangelical Conditionalism, ed. Christopher M. Date, Gregory G. Stump, and Joshua W. Anderson (Cambridge, UK: Lutterworth Press / Eugene, OR: Cascade Books, 2014), pp. 138–154.
    wel i dont know if hel iz a litural playce of fyer and brimstown oar knot but I dew gnow that it iz nowt a plac i whant to vizit.*




    *I just wanted to give you some more pleasure in correcting my spelling and grammar.

  10. Amen Thoughtful Monk amen'd this post.
  11. #28
    tWebber Rushing Jaws's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
    Annas and Saphira being struck dead, the Philistine tumors, bear attacks, global flood, 10 plagues of Egypt etc. I don't see any evidence in the Bible that supports that God wouldn't use physical punishment, and a lot that shows He's used it in the past.
    One could, I suppose, account for passages like these by saying that A & S died of heart attacks, and that the passage is a way of saying that because God is, in some sense, “behind” even heart attacks, that therefore, heart attacks can be regarded as a Divine punishment; but is that what St Luke, as an author a theologian, means to say here ? The point of the passage is lost, IMO, if it is not given full weight as a judgement passage, of which there seem to be several in Acts.

    If there are such passages, this would agree with the theme in St Luke of Jesus as King. In the Gospel, St Luke interprets the Kingship of Jesus in the light of Psalm 72. In Acts, interpretation seems to be in the light of Psalm 2.

    God as King in the NT is sometimes shown as Judge, activity which is bound up with His being King. The letters to the 7 churches, though Johannine rather than Lucan, are judgements on the churches in a book which is full of Divine judgements; so what is said in them is not far removed from this scene. Revelation and Acts both show God vindicating His Kingly rule by defeating opposition to it; and this is inextricably bound up with His vindication of His Messiah.

  12. #29
    tWebber The Remonstrant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    wel i dont know if hel iz a litural playce of fyer and brimstown oar knot but I dew gnow that it iz nowt a plac i whant to vizit.*




    *I just wanted to give you some more pleasure in correcting my spelling and grammar.
    ‘To say that God deliberately brings about a sinful human race so that he may [unconditionally] elect some to salvation, and then deliberately sends the nonelect to hell so that his saving gace may appear all the more glorious, is the opposite of grace.’
    —Jack W. Cottrell, ‘Responses to Robert L. Reymond’, in Chad Owen Brand (ed.), Perspectives on Election: Five Views (Nashville, TN: B&H Academic, 2006), p. 202, emphasis in original



  13. #30
    tWebber The Remonstrant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
    I have read about many different descriptions of Hell [—] physical suffering, emotional shame and regret, annihilation, etc. [—] I have realized that no matter which [view] is correct, I don't want to spend eternity there.
    Yes, there is the heavenly kingdom to be gained and the Gehenna of fire to be shunned.
    ‘To say that God deliberately brings about a sinful human race so that he may [unconditionally] elect some to salvation, and then deliberately sends the nonelect to hell so that his saving gace may appear all the more glorious, is the opposite of grace.’
    —Jack W. Cottrell, ‘Responses to Robert L. Reymond’, in Chad Owen Brand (ed.), Perspectives on Election: Five Views (Nashville, TN: B&H Academic, 2006), p. 202, emphasis in original



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