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Thread: What is hell like?

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    tWebber The Remonstrant's Avatar
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    There is a part of me that wishes that I could say that the Scriptures teach the eventual universal reconciliation of humankind, but I cannot find the teaching there.
    [I]f what you have heard from the beginning remains in you, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. … The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. (1 Jn 2.24; 5.12, LEB)

    <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>


    Farewell. (Sat., 24 Mar. 2018)

  2. Amen Jedidiah, Thoughtful Monk, Cerebrum123 amen'd this post.
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    tWebber The Remonstrant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    wel i dont know if hel iz a litural playce of fyer and brimstown oar knot but I dew gnow that it iz nowt a plac i whant to vizit.*


    *I just wanted to give you some more pleasure in correcting my spelling and grammar.
    Corrections for Sparko:

    ‘Well, I don’t know if hell is a literal place of fire and brimstone or not, but I do know that it is not a place I want to visit.’
    [I]f what you have heard from the beginning remains in you, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. … The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. (1 Jn 2.24; 5.12, LEB)

    <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>


    Farewell. (Sat., 24 Mar. 2018)

  4. #33
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Remonstrant View Post
    Corrections for Sparko:

    ‘Well, I don’t know if hell is a literal place of fire and brimstone or not, but I do know that it is not a place I want to visit.’
    Thenk kyoo Kynd sihr.

  5. #34
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    wel i dont know if hel iz a litural playce of fyer and brimstown oar knot but I dew gnow that it iz nowt a plac i whant to vizit.*




    *I just wanted to give you some more pleasure in correcting my spelling and grammar.

    This may help after your grammar is sorted:-

    To go to “Hell” is to just go underground.

    “In old English the word hell simply meant to hide or to cover - helling potatoes meant putting them into pits, helling a house meant covering or thatching it, etc.; the word hell was therefore properly used as signifying the secret or hidden condition of death. It had no reference whatever to a place of torture until that meaning was attached to it by the theologians of the Dark Ages.”-Restoration Light Bible Study Service, P.O. Box 16892, Philadelphia, PA 19142 USA

    BU

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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bibleuser View Post
    This may help after your grammar is sorted:-

    To go to “Hell” is to just go underground.

    “In old English the word hell simply meant to hide or to cover - helling potatoes meant putting them into pits, helling a house meant covering or thatching it, etc.; the word hell was therefore properly used as signifying the secret or hidden condition of death. It had no reference whatever to a place of torture until that meaning was attached to it by the theologians of the Dark Ages.”-Restoration Light Bible Study Service, P.O. Box 16892, Philadelphia, PA 19142 USA

    BU
    Because the original bible was written in English, right?

    The bible is clear that there is punishment for those who don't belong to God and are evil. Everlasting punishment. You can call it a potato cellar if you want, but I don't want to go there.

  7. #36
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    Because the original bible was written in English, right?

    The bible is clear that there is punishment for those who don't belong to God and are evil. Everlasting punishment. You can call it a potato cellar if you want, but I don't want to go there.
    To be tormented as a wicked person after one dies the person must still exist, but in another from, is this the case?

    FIRST
    WHAT IS THE CONDITION OF THE DEAD?
    “Dead: no longer alive ….”-Oxford Dictionary

    WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY?
    Eccl. 9:5
    “For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all (“But the dead know nothing”-‘TANAKH’ Jewish Bible), neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten.”

    Eccl. 9:10
    All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work (“no action”-‘TANAKH’ Jewish Bible) nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol, the place to which you are going.

    LIFE IS BEING (existence) - DEATH IS NON-BEING (non existence)!
    Eexample: The first human Adam!

    GEN. 2:17 states God’s punishment for Adam’s disobedient act of eating from ‘a tree which God had said ‘he was not to touch’ which was “you will positively die.”


    Where did Adam go at death?

    GEN. 3:19 In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”

    NOTE: ADAM = “For dust you are and to dust you will return.”

    ADAM DID NOT return to a spirit realm but back to where he came from, the dirt of the ground OR non-being (non-existence), thus as God said “back to the ground from which you came.”


    SO DOES THE “SOUL” DEPART TO A NEITHER WORLD OR THE LIKE?
    FURTHER LIGHT IS SHED ON THIS AT:
    EZEK. 18:4
    "Look! All the souls—to me they belong. As the soul of the father so likewise the soul of the son—to me they belong. The soul that is sinning—it itself will die."

    Ezek 18:20
    The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.. ."

    NO, THE “SOUL,” IT DIES, AS WITH ADAM and does not go somewhere else to live after death!


    SECOND
    WHAT IS HELL?

    A definition of “hell” reads: “Hell -n. 1 place regarded in some religions as the abode of the dead, or of devils and condemned sinners. 2 place or state of misery or wickedness. … .”-Oxford Dic.

    IS THIS CORRECT ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE?


    “SHEOL … Regarding Sheol, in A Compendious Hebrew Lexicon, Samuel Pike stated that it is “the common receptacle or region of the dead; so called from the insatiability of the grave, which is as it were always asking or craving more.” (Cambridge, 1811, p. 148) This would indicate that Sheol is the place (not a condition) that asks for or demands all without distinction, as it receives the dead of mankind within it.—Gen 37:35, ftn; Pr 30:15, 16."-It. Vol. 2 p.922


    The Church of England made an interesting comment on hell, in ‘The Mystery of Salvation’ The Story of God’s Gift, A Report by the Doctrine Commission of the Great Synod of the Church of England p.199

    “Hell is not eternal torment, but it is the final and irrevocable choosing of that which is opposed to God so completely and so absolute that the only end is total non-being. … Annihilation might be a truer picture of damnation that any of the traditional images of the hell of torment.”


    N.W.T. N.W.T K.J.V.
    Hebrew Greek English Meaning
    Sheol Hades Hell The Grave
    Grave



    To go to “Hell” is to just go underground.

    “In old English the word hell simply meant to hide or to cover - helling potatoes meant putting them into pits, helling a house meant covering or thatching it, etc.; the word hell was therefore properly used as signifying the secret or hidden condition of death. It had no reference whatever to a place of torture until that meaning was attached to it by the theologians of the Dark Ages.”-Restoration Light Bible Study Service, P.O. Box 16892, Philadelphia, PA 19142 USA



    QUESTION

    WHY IS THERE SO MUCH CONFUSION ABOUT HELL

    VARIOUS IDEAS ABOUT HELL:-
    "Hell In various religions, a place of posthumous punishment. In Hinduism, Buddhism, and Jainism, hell is a transitory stage in the progress of the soul, but in Christianity and Islam it is eternal (purgatory is transitory). Judaism does not postulate such punishment. In the Bible, the word `hell' is used to translate Hebrew and Greek words all meaning `the place of departed spirits, the abode of the dead'. In medieval Christian theology, hell is the place where unrepentant sinners suffer the torments of the damned, but the 20th-century tendency has been to regard hell as a state of damnation (that is, everlasting banishment from the sight of God) rather than a place."-INFOPEDIA UK96, Hutchinson New Century Encylocpedia

    ‘History of Western Philosophy’ by Bertrand Russell p.257

    "It is sometimes supposed that Hell was a Christian invention, but this is a mistake. What Christianity did in this respect was only to systematise earlier popular beliefs.”

    What where these “earlier popular beliefs” that where used to produced Hell-Fire?

    Egyptian
    ‘The Religion of Ancient Egypt’ by A.H.Sayce DD., LL.D. p.197
    "It was not only the friends and followers of Ra [the Sun god] who thus accompanied him in his journey through the other world; his enemies were there also, and the horrible punishments they had to endure, as depicted on the walls of royal tombs, were worthy of the imagination of a Dante. … Fire-breathing serpents are prominent among them, lighting up the darkness for the friends of Ra, and burning his foes with their poisonous flames."


    ‘The Religion of Ancient Egypt’ by Professor A. H. Sayce pp.229-30*
    Lecture X. The Place Of Egyptian Religion In The History Of Theology
    "Many of the theories of Egyptian religion modified and transformed no doubt, and penetrated into the theology of Christian Europe, and formed, as it were, part of the woof in the web of modern religious thought. Christian theology was largely organised and nurtured in the schools of Alexandria, and Alexandria was not only the meeting place of East and West, it was also the place where the decrepit theology of Egypt was revived by contact with the speculative philosophy of Greece. The Egyptian, the Greek, and the Jew met there on equal terms, and the result was a theological system in which each had a share.”


    THUS THE IDEA OF A BURNING PLACE OF EVERLASTING TORMENT ("HELL") IN THE AFTER LIFE HAS IT ROOTS IN PAGANISM & NOT TO BE FOUND IN THE BIBLE!


    THE “BODY” DESTROYED IN HELL
    (See * for Greek words)

    It is taught by various religions that “hell” is a place for the torment of a wicked persons immortal “soul” after their physical death, this is not a Bible teaching as noted below in the words of The Prophet Jesus at:-

    Greek N.T.
    καὶ μὴ φοβηθῆτε ἀπὸ τῶν ἀποκτενόντων τὸ σῶμα**, τὴν δὲ ψυχὴν μὴ δυναμένων ἀποκτεῖναι· φοβήθητε δὲ μᾶλλον τὸν δυνάμενον καὶ ψυχὴν καὶ σῶμα** ἀπολέσαι* ἐν γεέννῃ.

    N.W.T. Matthew 10:28
    “And do not become fearful of those who kill the body** but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy* both soul and body** in Ge·hen´na.

    K.J.V. Matthew 10:28
    “And fear not them which kill the body**, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy* both soul and body** in hell.”

    *J. Strong’s Greek Dictionary No. 622 ἀπόλλυμι apollumi ap-ol'-loo-mee From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

    **J. Strong’s Greek Dictionary No. 4983 σῶμα sōma so'-mah From G4982; the body (as a sound whole), used in a very wide application, literally or figuratively: - bodily, body, slave.

    In the above text from Matthew 10:28 we see:-

    1) that “BOTH THE SOUL AND BODY” go to ‘hell’ to be “destroyed” NOT to continue existing all be it in suffering and

    2) that the “body” can also go to “hell” so as the physical “body” can also go to “hell” then “hell” must be a material place for the materal “body” to be destroyed (it stops living). This follows well with the idea that the faithful Jews viewed Sheol (rendered as “hell” in some Bibles) as a place for the end of life or the of the “soul,” so the better understanding of “hell” as the Jew Jesus said, it is where all life ends; The Grave!

    BU

  8. #37
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bibleuser View Post
    To be tormented as a wicked person after one dies the person must still exist, but in another from, is this the case?

    FIRST
    WHAT IS THE CONDITION OF THE DEAD?
    “Dead: no longer alive ….”-Oxford Dictionary

    WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY?
    Eccl. 9:5
    “For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all (“But the dead know nothing”-‘TANAKH’ Jewish Bible), neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten.”

    Eccl. 9:10
    All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work (“no action”-‘TANAKH’ Jewish Bible) nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol, the place to which you are going.

    LIFE IS BEING (existence) - DEATH IS NON-BEING (non existence)!
    Eexample: The first human Adam!

    GEN. 2:17 states God’s punishment for Adam’s disobedient act of eating from ‘a tree which God had said ‘he was not to touch’ which was “you will positively die.”


    Where did Adam go at death?

    GEN. 3:19 In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”

    NOTE: ADAM = “For dust you are and to dust you will return.”

    ADAM DID NOT return to a spirit realm but back to where he came from, the dirt of the ground OR non-being (non-existence), thus as God said “back to the ground from which you came.”


    SO DOES THE “SOUL” DEPART TO A NEITHER WORLD OR THE LIKE?
    FURTHER LIGHT IS SHED ON THIS AT:
    EZEK. 18:4
    "Look! All the souls—to me they belong. As the soul of the father so likewise the soul of the son—to me they belong. The soul that is sinning—it itself will die."

    Ezek 18:20
    The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.. ."

    NO, THE “SOUL,” IT DIES, AS WITH ADAM and does not go somewhere else to live after death!


    SECOND
    WHAT IS HELL?

    A definition of “hell” reads: “Hell -n. 1 place regarded in some religions as the abode of the dead, or of devils and condemned sinners. 2 place or state of misery or wickedness. … .”-Oxford Dic.

    IS THIS CORRECT ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE?


    “SHEOL … Regarding Sheol, in A Compendious Hebrew Lexicon, Samuel Pike stated that it is “the common receptacle or region of the dead; so called from the insatiability of the grave, which is as it were always asking or craving more.” (Cambridge, 1811, p. 148) This would indicate that Sheol is the place (not a condition) that asks for or demands all without distinction, as it receives the dead of mankind within it.—Gen 37:35, ftn; Pr 30:15, 16."-It. Vol. 2 p.922


    The Church of England made an interesting comment on hell, in ‘The Mystery of Salvation’ The Story of God’s Gift, A Report by the Doctrine Commission of the Great Synod of the Church of England p.199

    “Hell is not eternal torment, but it is the final and irrevocable choosing of that which is opposed to God so completely and so absolute that the only end is total non-being. … Annihilation might be a truer picture of damnation that any of the traditional images of the hell of torment.”


    N.W.T. N.W.T K.J.V.
    Hebrew Greek English Meaning
    Sheol Hades Hell The Grave
    Grave



    To go to “Hell” is to just go underground.

    “In old English the word hell simply meant to hide or to cover - helling potatoes meant putting them into pits, helling a house meant covering or thatching it, etc.; the word hell was therefore properly used as signifying the secret or hidden condition of death. It had no reference whatever to a place of torture until that meaning was attached to it by the theologians of the Dark Ages.”-Restoration Light Bible Study Service, P.O. Box 16892, Philadelphia, PA 19142 USA



    QUESTION

    WHY IS THERE SO MUCH CONFUSION ABOUT HELL

    VARIOUS IDEAS ABOUT HELL:-
    "Hell In various religions, a place of posthumous punishment. In Hinduism, Buddhism, and Jainism, hell is a transitory stage in the progress of the soul, but in Christianity and Islam it is eternal (purgatory is transitory). Judaism does not postulate such punishment. In the Bible, the word `hell' is used to translate Hebrew and Greek words all meaning `the place of departed spirits, the abode of the dead'. In medieval Christian theology, hell is the place where unrepentant sinners suffer the torments of the damned, but the 20th-century tendency has been to regard hell as a state of damnation (that is, everlasting banishment from the sight of God) rather than a place."-INFOPEDIA UK96, Hutchinson New Century Encylocpedia

    ‘History of Western Philosophy’ by Bertrand Russell p.257

    "It is sometimes supposed that Hell was a Christian invention, but this is a mistake. What Christianity did in this respect was only to systematise earlier popular beliefs.”

    What where these “earlier popular beliefs” that where used to produced Hell-Fire?

    Egyptian
    ‘The Religion of Ancient Egypt’ by A.H.Sayce DD., LL.D. p.197
    "It was not only the friends and followers of Ra [the Sun god] who thus accompanied him in his journey through the other world; his enemies were there also, and the horrible punishments they had to endure, as depicted on the walls of royal tombs, were worthy of the imagination of a Dante. … Fire-breathing serpents are prominent among them, lighting up the darkness for the friends of Ra, and burning his foes with their poisonous flames."


    ‘The Religion of Ancient Egypt’ by Professor A. H. Sayce pp.229-30*
    Lecture X. The Place Of Egyptian Religion In The History Of Theology
    "Many of the theories of Egyptian religion modified and transformed no doubt, and penetrated into the theology of Christian Europe, and formed, as it were, part of the woof in the web of modern religious thought. Christian theology was largely organised and nurtured in the schools of Alexandria, and Alexandria was not only the meeting place of East and West, it was also the place where the decrepit theology of Egypt was revived by contact with the speculative philosophy of Greece. The Egyptian, the Greek, and the Jew met there on equal terms, and the result was a theological system in which each had a share.”


    THUS THE IDEA OF A BURNING PLACE OF EVERLASTING TORMENT ("HELL") IN THE AFTER LIFE HAS IT ROOTS IN PAGANISM & NOT TO BE FOUND IN THE BIBLE!


    THE “BODY” DESTROYED IN HELL
    (See * for Greek words)

    It is taught by various religions that “hell” is a place for the torment of a wicked persons immortal “soul” after their physical death, this is not a Bible teaching as noted below in the words of The Prophet Jesus at:-

    Greek N.T.
    καὶ μὴ φοβηθῆτε ἀπὸ τῶν ἀποκτενόντων τὸ σῶμα**, τὴν δὲ ψυχὴν μὴ δυναμένων ἀποκτεῖναι· φοβήθητε δὲ μᾶλλον τὸν δυνάμενον καὶ ψυχὴν καὶ σῶμα** ἀπολέσαι* ἐν γεέννῃ.

    N.W.T. Matthew 10:28
    “And do not become fearful of those who kill the body** but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy* both soul and body** in Ge·hen´na.

    K.J.V. Matthew 10:28
    “And fear not them which kill the body**, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy* both soul and body** in hell.”

    *J. Strong’s Greek Dictionary No. 622 ἀπόλλυμι apollumi ap-ol'-loo-mee From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

    **J. Strong’s Greek Dictionary No. 4983 σῶμα sōma so'-mah From G4982; the body (as a sound whole), used in a very wide application, literally or figuratively: - bodily, body, slave.

    In the above text from Matthew 10:28 we see:-

    1) that “BOTH THE SOUL AND BODY” go to ‘hell’ to be “destroyed” NOT to continue existing all be it in suffering and

    2) that the “body” can also go to “hell” so as the physical “body” can also go to “hell” then “hell” must be a material place for the materal “body” to be destroyed (it stops living). This follows well with the idea that the faithful Jews viewed Sheol (rendered as “hell” in some Bibles) as a place for the end of life or the of the “soul,” so the better understanding of “hell” as the Jew Jesus said, it is where all life ends; The Grave!

    BU
    Wow you have taken Cherry Picking to a whole new level. But then you are using JW material as your base and that is what they do so well.

    BU why do you only accept verses that agree with you and dismiss any that don't? Don't you take the whole bible as truth, or only the parts that agree with the JW theology? I believe all of it.

    Your verses quoted above are taken out of context. The one in Ecclesiastes 9 for instance is Salomon waxing poetic and feeling depressed about life. It is not a biblical teaching on the afterlife. For instance, a couple of verses earlier he says:

    2 All share a common destiny—the righteous and the wicked, the good and the bad, the clean and the unclean, those who offer sacrifices and those who do not.

    So according to him there is no heaven either. everyone just dies and ceases to exist, the righteous and the wicked. Even the 144,000.

    Instead of just cutting and pasting JW material, how about you get a good modern bible translation like the New International Version and go read all of those verses in context?


    ---------------------
    BTW, you need to cite any external sources you are using to make your posts or it is plagiarism and you can be banned. It is obvious you are using JW material in your posts without attribution. This is your official warning.
    Last edited by Sparko; 01-04-2018 at 04:10 PM.

  9. #38
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bibleuser View Post
    The Church of England made an interesting comment on hell, in ‘The Mystery of Salvation’ The Story of God’s Gift, A Report by the Doctrine Commission of the Great Synod of the Church of England p.199

    “Hell is not eternal torment, but it is the final and irrevocable choosing of that which is opposed to God so completely and so absolute that the only end is total non-being. … Annihilation might be a truer picture of damnation that any of the traditional images of the hell of torment.”
    Strewth/strike me pink/blow me down with a feather ... they did say just that.


    "It is sometimes supposed that Hell was a Christian invention, but this is a mistake. What Christianity did in this respect was only to systematise earlier popular beliefs.”
    Whatever its origin, Jesus endorsed the concept as valid. He likened it to a prison.




    THUS THE IDEA OF A BURNING PLACE OF EVERLASTING TORMENT ("HELL") IN THE AFTER LIFE HAS IT ROOTS IN PAGANISM & NOT TO BE FOUND IN THE BIBLE!
    Iy see~. The Book of Revelation is not part of the Bible.


    N.W.T. Matthew 10:28
    “And do not become fearful of those who kill the body** but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy* both soul and body** in Ge·hen´na.

    K.J.V. Matthew 10:28
    “And fear not them which kill the body**, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy* both soul and body** in hell.”
    It would be a hard task to equate Gehenna with (the realm) of Hades, but even if the task was successfully completed, "is able" does not mean "does."

    In the above text from Matthew 10:28 we see:-

    1) that “BOTH THE SOUL AND BODY” go to ‘hell’ to be “destroyed” NOT to continue existing all be it in suffering and
    "We ... ? see??"

    2) that the “body” can also go to “hell” so as the physical “body” can also go to “hell” then “hell” must be a material place for the materal “body” to be destroyed (it stops living). This follows well with the idea that the faithful Jews viewed Sheol (rendered as “hell” in some Bibles) as a place for the end of life or the of the “soul,” so the better understanding of “hell” as the Jew Jesus said, it is where all life ends; The Grave!
    BU
    The record shows that Jesus said "God CAN destroy the soul in GEHENNA" (demonstrably a physical place on Earth). Just occasionally it is of benefit to pay attention to the detail; "CAN" and "GEHENNA" ... not "DOES" and "(the realm) OF HADES"
    In Jewish thought, past and present, Sheol is the abode of the dead: the place where the souls of the dead abide/live. Significantly, Sheol is translated to Koine Greek as "(the realm) of Hades." To the best of my knowledge, not a single reference to Sheol unambiguously equates it to a mere grave.
    Last edited by tabibito; 01-07-2018 at 12:18 PM.
    και εκζητησατε με και ευρησετε με οτι ζητησετε με εν ολη καρδία υμων

  10. #39
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Jesus' soul died on the cross (Isaiah 53:10, 12, Mark 10:45). And it was after words that Jesus died in His body (John 19:28-30, Luke 23:46). And in the resurrection Jesus soul was not left in Hades (Acts 2:27).
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  11. #40
    tWebber Leonhard's Avatar
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    There is only one time in Hell: Too late.

  12. Amen Sparko amen'd this post.

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