God's Desire to Save Everyone and Predestination

[themuzicman]

I agree that is quite the assumption... It might be safer to say that with God not being controlled by time and knows everything then he knows who will and won't be saved.

IOW, God knew before creating who would and would not be saved, and in spite of desiring that all be saved, God created... This...

[37818]

God does not force unmerited favor [grace] on anyone. Rather, God fore loves those whom He from timeless eternity knows, and predestines them that believe. (Titus 2:11; John 3:16, 18, 36; Romans 8:29; 1 Peter 1:1,2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 2 Thessalonians 1:8.)

God's election is conditional (John 3:16) but cannot be merited in any way. (Romans 4:5; Ephesians 2:8-10.)

[The Remonstrant]

I'll try to rephrase that I said in my OP.

Are the following beliefs consistent with each other?

1. The belief that God desires to save everyone.
2. The belief that God does not choose everyone to believe in Christ.

See the most in depth treatment on this thread thus far (post #7).

[37818]

(1) God desires the salvation of all people without exception (the universal salvific/saving will of God)

This is necessary because all men are lost. (Romans 3:10, 11, 23.)

(2) Christ died for all people without exception (universal/unlimited atonement)

Yes, in that Christ will either be the Savior of those who believe, having secured their salvation, or the Judge of those who do not believe God's grace. (see Romans 14:9-11.)

(3) The gospel call is universal and indiscriminate (universal gospel call)

Yes, but not all are chosen. (see Ephesians 1:4.)

(4) Those who repent, believe and persevere in faith in Christ will inherit final salvation

This last statement "persevere in faith in Christ will inherit final salvation" is false, If it would make it not possible to know for sure (see 1 John 5:9-13.) Since it is God who actually does the saving (John 1:13.) Since it is God who preserves (see John 10:27-30.)

[37818]

persevere in faith in Christ

Those who persevere in the faith are the genuine Christians. Those who do not were never saved to begin with. (2 John 9.)

1 John 2:19,

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they all are not of us.

[Littlejoe]

Those who persevere in the faith are the genuine Christians. Those who do not were never saved to begin with. (2 John 9.)

1 John 2:19,

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they all are not of us.

Sorry, but that dog won't hunt...

Ex. 32:33 NASB

33 The LORD said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me I will blot him out of my book.

Rev. 3:1-5 NASB

1 “To the angel of the church in Sardis write: He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars, says this: ‘I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. 2 Wake up, and strengthen the things that remain, which were about to die; for I have not found your deeds completed in the sight of My God. 3 So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent. Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you. 4 But you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. 6 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

2 Peter 2:20,21 NASB

20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.

Just to name a few.....
LJ

[37818]

Sorry, but that dog won't hunt...

Ex. 32:33 NASB

33 The LORD said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me I will blot him out of my book.

You might want to explain what you mean.

Because everyone's name is in the book, and unless they become an overcomer, be born of God, their names will be blotted out.

The promise is:

Revelation 3:5,

He that overcometh shall thus be arrayed in white garments; and I will in no wise blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

1 John 5:4, 5,

For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that hath overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

[The Remonstrant]

Perseverance & Assurance of Salvation

(4) Those who repent, believe and persevere in faith in Christ will inherit final salvation

This last statement "persevere in faith in Christ will inherit final salvation" is false, [i]f it would make it not possible to know for sure (see 1 John 5:9-13.)

There are various different ways of dealing with the teaching of the believer's assurance of salvation, but I wasn't specifically addressing (or even alluding to) that doctrine in my above post (#7). It may be possible to possess a present assurance of present salvation, but this assurance is not the same as infallibly knowing whether or not one will persevere in the faith. (This is what the Remonstrants originally taught and believed along with Wesleyan Methodists.)

Divine Preservation & Human Perseverance

Since it is God who actually does the saving (John 1:13.) Since it is God who preserves (see John 10:27-30.)

The concern is not whether or not God is able to preserve believers; that is a given. The issue is whether those in the faith will persevere in the faith. In other words, regarding divine preservation, there is no question of failure. Regarding the human side of the equation, however, the question remains open.

Take Jude 20-21 (NASB, emphasis added), for example: "But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life."

Believers are constantly exhorted throughout the NT to persevere lest they fall away and fail to inherit final salvation. The only other way to take these warnings is to reduce them either to hypothetical warnings in one way or another (i.e., the condition of a "true" believer failing to persevere never can or will be fulfilled). I would suggest that is a forced interpretation of such texts.

[RBerman]

So in other words you do not believe that God desires all men to be saved...?

I find the word "desire" imprecise, because as detailed above, under one definition I would say "yes" to your question, but under another I would says "no." I can say with certainty that there are no men that God is trying to save, but failing to save.

[37818]

Perseverance & Assurance of Salvation

There are various different ways of dealing with the teaching of the believer's assurance of salvation, but I wasn't specifically addressing (or even alluding to) that doctrine in my above post (#7). It may be possible to possess a present assurance of present salvation, but this assurance is not the same as infallibly knowing whether or not one will persevere in the faith. (This is what the Remonstrants originally taught and believed along with Wesleyan Methodists.)

Divine Preservation & Human Perseverance



The concern is not whether or not God is able to preserve believers; that is a given. The issue is whether those in the faith will persevere in the faith. In other words, regarding divine preservation, there is no question of failure. Regarding the human side of the equation, however, the question remains open.

Take Jude 20-21 (NASB, emphasis added), for example: "But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life."

Believers are constantly exhorted throughout the NT to persevere lest they fall away and fail to inherit final salvation. The only other way to take these warnings is to reduce them either to hypothetical warnings in one way or another (i.e., the condition of a "true" believer failing to persevere never can or will be fulfilled). I would suggest that is a forced interpretation of such texts.

You explain this well. But it does not change the fact that from that point of view, that interpretation, one cannot really know they have eternal life. Because: 1) None of us, for the most part, knows when death will come each of us. 2) If those who profess faith in Christ and can be lost, then they do not know for sure they have eternal life. They cannot because one might yet deny the faith. 1 John 5:13 is false. Why would it be true?

[apostoli]

You explain this well. But it does not change the fact that from that point of view, that interpretation, one cannot really know they have eternal life. Because: 1) None of us, for the most part, knows when death will come each of us. 2) If those who profess faith in Christ and can be lost, then they do not know for sure they have eternal life. They cannot because one might yet deny the faith. 1 John 5:13 is false. Why would it be true?

In my reading of Phil 3:11-14 not even A.Paul considered himself assured of his "resurrection from the dead" but never-the-less he says "I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus".

[37818]

In my reading of Phil 3:11-14 not even A.Paul considered himself assured of his "resurrection from the dead" but never-the-less he says "I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus".

Philippians 3:8-14,

Yea verily, and I count all things to be loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but refuse, that I may gain Christ, and be found in him, not having a righteousness of mine own, even that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith: that I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, becoming conformed unto his death; if by any means I may attain unto the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained, or am already made perfect: but I press on, if so be that I may lay hold on that for which also I was laid hold on by Christ Jesus. Brethren, I could not myself yet to have laid hold: but one thing I do, forgetting the things which are behind, and stretching forward to the things which are before, I press on toward the goal unto the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Again it is not so much a disagreement on what Paul said, but the interpretation, understanding of what Paul meant.

The resurrection is not the same thing as the prize of the high calling of God here for one thing.

And writing to the Corinthian church the Apostle Paul was confident of knowing to be absent from his body he would be with Christ our Lord.

2 Corinthians 5: . . .8,

. . . we are of good courage, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord.

[hedrick]

Even if you aren't a Calvinist, presumably you will still agree that God chose a world in which not everyone is saved. Calvinism adds the concept that God chose specific individuals. But since the question here was not about choice of the elect, but whether God wants everyone to be saved, I think we're on safe ground to say that God chose to create a world in which not everyone is saved.

[Exception: God is not able to save everyone. I think most Christians would reject this. Many believe that God is not able to create a world with both free will and everyone being saved. But that's a different matter. That still assumes that God chose not to save everyone, in order to maintain free will.]

OK, suppose that God chose to create world in which not everyone is saved, perhaps to maintain free will; perhaps for some other reason. But the original question isn't quite that. It's whether God desires to save everyone. As far as I can tell, desire can differ from choice only if there are limits to what you can choose. I believe that both Calvinists and non-Calvinsts can reasonably maintain either view.

It's fairly common for Christians to speculate that God created a world where evil would develop (he didn't create evil himself, of course), in order to allow free will, or some related value. I think people who believe that quite commonly think that God would like to save everyone, but can't without violating free will, etc. This speculation seems to be used by both Calvinists and others. I think in this approach one could reasonably say that God desires for everyone to be saved, but can't -- not for lack of power, but for logical reasons.

What's the alternative? Perhaps some concept that God thought good would be shown more clearly if evil exists. But even here, God chose not to save everyone for a reason, so one might still think that he desires everyone to be saved, but couldn't because it wouldn't make the contrast between good and evil clear enough.

Just about the only situation where we couldn't say that is if God chose a world where some wouldn't be saved because he thinks damning some people is good, independent of any other reason that would make it necessary.

In all of this discussion, I think we are beyond where we have clear Scriptural evidence. We simply don't know why God created the universe the way he did. I believe most (though not all) would have a problem with the idea that God just likes damning people. As long as you think that he had to have a reason to allow damnation, it seems to me that underneath you're assuming that he would like to save everyone. My sense is that this is probably the most common position for both Calvinists and others. While we don't have very clear Scriptural evidence on how God made his choices, there are enough passages saying that God doesn't desire anyone's damnation that it seems reasonable to speculate that damnation exists only because there is some good reason why it has to exist, and not just God liking to damn people.

[37818]

It's fairly common for Christians to speculate that God created a world where evil would develop (he didn't create evil himself, of course), in order to allow free will, or . . .

God is infinitely good, and evil is in fact part of God's good creation. Good is void of evil, yet there can be no evil unless there is good which can be take away in some way. In that God created good which can be negated, that is the creation of evil, the potential of evil.

Isaiah 45:. . .6,7,

. . . I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

Again, evil is part of God's good creation. Free will, as it is called is not the cause of evil, but not chosing what is right or true, or destroying a good that can be negated in some way is an evil choice.

The knowledge of good and evil is God's knowledge. In the fall, man obtained this knowledge contrary to God's instruction. (Genesis 2:17; Genesis 3:22.) That is why [finite] man has a sinful and fallen nature, because [finite] man acquired a knowledge which only an infinite good God can have and remain good.

[apostoli]

Philippians 3:8-14,

Yea verily, and I count all things to be loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but refuse, that I may gain Christ, and be found in him, not having a righteousness of mine own, even that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith: that I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, becoming conformed unto his death; if by any means I may attain unto the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained, or am already made perfect: but I press on, if so be that I may lay hold on that for which also I was laid hold on by Christ Jesus. Brethren, I could not myself yet to have laid hold: but one thing I do, forgetting the things which are behind, and stretching forward to the things which are before, I press on toward the goal unto the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Again it is not so much a disagreement on what Paul said, but the interpretation, understanding of what Paul meant. The resurrection is not the same thing as the prize of the high calling of God here for one thing.

Notice the bit I underlined. Imu, the prize of the high calling of God, is the fellowship in Christ's sufferings...that is what A.Paul, imu, assumed would confirm his right to a resurrection...

And writing to the Corinthian church the Apostle Paul was confident of knowing to be absent from his body he would be with Christ our Lord.

2 Corinthians 5: . . .8,

. . . we are of good courage, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord.

Note A.Paul is refering to "the here and now" (2 Cor 5:1-12). The key, imo, is in verse 12 "that you may be able to answer those who boast about outward appearance and not about what is in the heart" (ESV) and, imo, this points back to the reflection in verse 7 "For we walk by faith, not by sight" which explains verse 6&8 "Therefore [we are] always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord...We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord". In other words, to have confidence we need to revoke all fleshly inclinations, and instead incline ourselves to the Lord (a common theme in A.Paul's writings). Imu, whilst we can have confidence (assuming we do whatever with good conscious), from Philippians 3 we can't assume a gaurantee...