God's Desire to Save Everyone and Predestination

[oxmixmudd]

To one with a Calvinist understanding, this text requires absolutely no "stretching." It's a comment about specific individuals, spoken without any qualification, bespeaking the universality of the underlying principle, just like "They went out in the rain, so they got wet." The Arminian, on the other hand, does have to stretch the text to include an unspoken disclaimer, "They went out from among us, because they were not of us. [That's not necessarily true of all apostates, just these.]" Your exegesis of verse 24 accurately captures how Calvinists and Arminians would differ in its interpretation, but "abiding" language does not "affirm the conditionality of salvation." Rather, in the context of verse 19, it implies the same thing about the rest of the church: "If you go out from among us, you too were never of us."

So - what of the fellow who becomes a Christian, then leaves the faith for a time, then returns? Was he Never of us(during the time he is away)? Or was he Always of us (as ascertained on account of his return)?

Not to disrespect any of the excellent arguments made by both Rberman and Remonstrat on this subject, I think this is one aspect of this debate I almost throw my hands up and say "I give up" over. There is in fact no way for us to ever know in any specific instance if the fellow was never saved or was saved and fell away. In fact, from my perspective, it seems that the only productive knowledge to be gained from the scriptures that appear to address this issue is that for myself, if I wish to be part of Christ, there is nothing that can separate me from Him. And that is a greatly comforting thought. But If I try to apply them to someone other than myself, I am almost guaranteed to falsely judge the spiritual state of another.

And to that end, it seems to me that in terms of how I see myself, one can gain certain elements from both Calvin and Arminius, but in terms of how I deal with someone other than myself, the Armenian perspective seems the better, in that I will always graciously give the other fellow the chance that he can in fact return to full fellowship with Christ.


Jim

[Rdr. Arsenios]

He seeems to be stating a general principle which he applies to this particular apostasy. Why would "If they were of us, they would have stayed with us" be unusually applicable just to that situation?

I should think that this passage is a reflection of the teaching of the tares sown secretly by the enemy among the Ekklesia...
The Faith given to the Ekklesia by the Apostles is utterly dogmatic on the issues of Who Christ IS...
And this Faith overturns Powers and Principalities of evil, so that one can expect that tares will be sown...

It does not, I should think, apply universally to all believers, but only to the tares...
And that means only to those secretly sown by demonic powers into the Church...

Arsenios

[RBerman]

So - what of the fellow who becomes a Christian, then leaves the faith for a time, then returns? Was he Never of us(during the time he is away)? Or was he Always of us (as ascertained on account of his return)?

It may be difficult for us to tell; we can't read each others' hearts. Only God can. One can always construct scenarios which are pastorally difficult to navigate.

And to that end, it seems to me that in terms of how I see myself, one can gain certain elements from both Calvin and Arminius, but in terms of how I deal with someone other than myself, the Armenian perspective seems the better, in that I will always graciously give the other fellow the chance that he can in fact return to full fellowship with Christ.

Calvinists always give the person that option as well, because (1) They may be a true believer already, who has fallen into a dark time but will ultimately return, or (2) They may be currently an unbeliever, but an unbeliever may come to faith, and we can and should pray and work for that to happen. So that's not really a point on which Calvinists and Arminians differ.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Calvinists always give the person that option as well, because (1) They may be a true believer already, who has fallen into a dark time but will ultimately return, or (2) They may be currently an unbeliever, but an unbeliever may come to faith, and we can and should pray and work for that to happen. So that's not really a point on which Calvinists and Arminians differ.

Well, the text reads that they went out from [departed] us because they were not OF us...
So in terms of the text, it is not universal for all believers, but only for those not OF us...

But I would be interested in you telling us how Calvinism pastorally employs the doctrine of predestination by irresistable grace...
eg Where God gives to some and witholds from others His Salvation according to the person rather than his deeds...

Arsenios

[siliconwafer]

Well, the text reads that they went out from [departed] us because they were not OF us...
So in terms of the text, it is not universal for all believers, but only for those not OF us...

But I would be interested in you telling us how Calvinism pastorally employs the doctrine of predestination by irresistable grace...
eg Where God gives to some and witholds from others His Salvation according to the person rather than his deeds...

Arsenios

People are told that everyone is a sinner deserving of eternal damnation and that Jesus became a man, lived a perfect life, and died for His people. Jesus rose from the dead demonstrating that His sacrifice was acceptable to God. God commands everyone to turn from their sins and to trust in Christ alone for their salvation.

The elect will come to Christ; God guarantees that they will come to Christ.

If God chose to elect nobody, then everyone would choose to reject God. Everyone deserves to go to hell. Nobody deserves to be saved. Moreover, God does not have the obligation to save anyone.

[RBerman]

I would be interested in you telling us how Calvinism pastorally employs the doctrine of predestination by irresistable grace... eg Where God gives to some and witholds from others His Salvation according to the person rather than his deeds...

I don't know what "according to the person rather than his deeds" means. And to be honest, our previous interactions leave me with the expectation that you only ask the question so that you can criticize whatever answer I give, so I decline to answer.

[Littlejoe]

I don't know what "according to the person rather than his deeds" means. And to be honest, our previous interactions leave me with the expectation that you only ask the question so that you can criticize whatever answer I give, so I decline to answer.

Isn't that really the nature of debate forums?

[oxmixmudd]

People are told that everyone is a sinner deserving of eternal damnation and that Jesus became a man, lived a perfect life, and died for His people. Jesus rose from the dead demonstrating that His sacrifice was acceptable to God. God commands everyone to turn from their sins and to trust in Christ alone for their salvation.

The elect will come to Christ; God guarantees that they will come to Christ.

If God chose to elect nobody, then everyone would choose to reject God. Everyone deserves to go to hell. Nobody deserves to be saved. Moreover, God does not have the obligation to save anyone.

THAT has to be one of the most caustic and absurd representations of the God of the universe I've seen lately. A God whose love and grace is in fact immeasurable somehow becomes the equivalent of loki, randomly and arbitrarily punishing and saving for no apparent reason. I really think you might want to revisit the text and read with a little more spirit and a little less law - or did I miss something and you are just parroting some other comment you saw in this thread?

Jim

[Littlejoe]

People are told that everyone is a sinner deserving of eternal damnation and that Jesus became a man, lived a perfect life, and died for His people. Jesus rose from the dead demonstrating that His sacrifice was acceptable to God. God commands everyone to turn from their sins and to trust in Christ alone for their salvation.

The elect will come to Christ; God guarantees that they will come to Christ.

If God chose to elect nobody, then everyone would choose to reject God. Everyone deserves to go to hell. Nobody deserves to be saved. Moreover, God does not have the obligation to save anyone.

THAT has to be one of the most caustic and absurd representations of the God of the universe I've seen lately. A God whose love and grace is in fact immeasurable somehow becomes the equivalent of loki, randomly and arbitrarily punishing and saving for no apparent reason. I really think you might want to revisit the text and read with a little more spirit and a little less law - or did I miss something and you are just parroting some other comment you saw in this thread?

Jim

Jim,
SW's post is pretty much the standard Calvinist/Reformed position.

LJ

[Rdr. Arsenios]

I don't know what "according to the person rather than his deeds" means.

It simply means that we are all equally undeserving of God's Gift, but God picked out some of us, and those persons whom He picked out are guaranteed their Salvation because they are the persons God pre-selected, and nothing bad they can DO will matter, they will be saved no matter what, and nothing good the rest might do matters either, for they are pre-condemned to eternal torment...

You see, the only question is: "WHOM did God pre-select for Salvation?"
The DEEDS of ANY make no difference whatsoever...

And my question is this: "HOW is this understanding pastorally implemented by those believing it?
Do you just tell people: "Don't worry, if you are pre-selected by God, it matters not what you do, and you will be saved anyway."???
And do you tell them: "Don't worry, whatever you do if you are NOT pre-selected by God, your good deeds won't matter anyway."???

I mean, how does that work out pastorally as an administered doctrine? I think before you had mentioned that you tend to pastor AS IF people had free will, and you tell them to exercise it to the best of their ability to do good and avoid doing evil, yes? But if so, then you would be lying to them, would you not? Their self-willed efforts have NOTHING to do with their election, right?

On the Orthodox side, we go with Christ's own words, where He said: "IF anyone is willing, after me to be following, let him first deny himself (obedience unto repentance), then take up his own cross (of repentance) daily, and follow Me..." And this is what Christians do, some more and some less, according to their willingness, which God allows in this fallen creation and in fallen man in it...

Arsenios

[RBerman]

THAT has to be one of the most caustic and absurd representations of the God of the universe I've seen lately. A God whose love and grace is in fact immeasurable somehow becomes the equivalent of loki, randomly and arbitrarily punishing and saving for no apparent reason. I really think you might want to revisit the text and read with a little more spirit and a little less law - or did I miss something and you are just parroting some other comment you saw in this thread?

"No apparent reason" is not the same thing as either "random" or "arbitrary." It just means that God doesn't necessarily reveal to us the reasons that he does things. Is that an offensive idea?

[RBerman]

It simply means that we are all equally undeserving of God's Gift, but God picked out some of us, and those persons whom He picked out are guaranteed their Salvation because they are the persons God pre-selected, and nothing bad they can DO will matter, they will be saved no matter what, and nothing good the rest might do matters either, for they are pre-condemned to eternal torment...

You see, the only question is: "WHOM did God pre-select for Salvation?"
The DEEDS of ANY make no difference whatsoever...

And my question is this: "HOW is this understanding pastorally implemented by those believing it?
Do you just tell people: "Don't worry, if you are pre-selected by God, it matters not what you do, and you will be saved anyway."???
And do you tell them: "Don't worry, whatever you do if you are NOT pre-selected by God, your good deeds won't matter anyway."???

I mean, how does that work out pastorally as an administered doctrine? I think before you had mentioned that you tend to pastor AS IF people had free will, and you tell them to exercise it to the best of their ability to do good and avoid doing evil, yes? But if so, then you would be lying to them, would you not? Their self-willed efforts have NOTHING to do with their election, right?

On the Orthodox side, we go with Christ's own words, where He said: "IF anyone is willing, after me to be following, let him first deny himself, then take up his own cross daily, and follow Me..." And this is what Christians do, some more and some less, according to their willingness, which God allows in this fallen creation and in fallen man in it.

It's so abhorrent to me to discuss the thought that we're saved by our deeds, that I don't even know where to begin.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

It's so abhorrent to me to discuss the thought that we're saved by our deeds, that I don't even know where to begin.

Well, I appreciate and share your abhorrence, for NO ONE is EVER save by the agency of his or her deeds... Salvation is by the Divine Agency of Grsimpace, which comes through the exercise of the Faith given once, for all, to the Apostles... The FOLLOWING of Christ which IS that Faith is a HUGE WORK, and THROUGH this work we are saved, but not BY it... The reason Holy Scripture tells us that we re saved BY Grace THROUGH Faith is that BOTH are required that there be salvation - And NOT because God needs more than HIS Agency, but because He requires of us OUR PART in the enterprise, and He alone determines for each of us just how much is enough, and for each it varies, for we are all unrepeatable persons... For the Thief on the Cross, the matter was simply attained by his confession [which was the deed lacking in the other thief who blashphemed Christ and went to Hades] on the cross... Others need a lifetime of labors... THAT is God's call alone... God decides if, when and where to give the Gift of His Grace which IS Himself AND our salvation - eg the intimacy of union with Him in oneness that is called "knowing God" and far surpasses the knowing that Adam had of Eve AFTER the Fall...

The Faith is a GREAT WORK, my brother, and BY it none are saved, but THROUGH it anyone willing CAN BE saved...

I mean, what do you SAY to Christ who said: "IF any is willing..."??? [ei tis thelei...] He KNEW that MOST are NOT WILLING... But ANYONE who IS willing must DO three things: First: Deny himself, and second: Take up his own cross daily... And three: Follow Christ... The PIVOT POINT, you see, is not God's "extra grace" to make one willing, but one's willingness that will attain the Grace of God, without earning it... It is attained as a gift - We give our willingness, and God gives us the Grace to be even more willing... That's the way it works, and without the willingness to deny self, take up one's cross and follow Christ, none are saved BY Him... HE requires this of US - He does not NEED us to do it in order to be saved... And as Paul reported in Hebrews, those who prolonged their deaths in torments did so in orderr to attain a better resurrection, remember? Indeed, there is a God Who is a Rewarder of those seeking Him...

You see, youi wish to reduce that human willingness to non-autonomous etiology, in the face of the fact that man is create in the Image of God, and human willingness on this fallen earth by fallen man is NOT reducible to external etiology, either Divine or created...

Arsenios

[37818]

One of the conditions of faith in God's gospel of grace is that in the actions of believing the truth by the believer, the believer understands there is no merit, earned as such, by believing in the truth of God's umerited favor (grace).

[Rdr. Arsenios]

One of the conditions of faith in God's gospel of grace is that in the actions of believing the truth by the believer, the believer understands there is no merit, earned as such, by believing in the truth of God's umerited favor (grace).

It is a covenental relationship between God and man - Man can do nothing to earn God's Grace, but in this covenant, God agrees to give us His Grace IF we obey His commandments...

So yes, you are right, we cannot earn God's Grace by works, but because of the Body and Blood of the New Covenant with Christ, we cannot attain that [salvational] Grace without keeping our side of the covenant's commandments of Christ... The commandments are God's to give, and man's to obey... Faith is the obeying of God's commandments, and thereby keeping our side of the covenant with God... And we know that God is faithful and will keep His side...

Arsenios