God's Desire to Save Everyone and Predestination

[Phat8594]

I disagree, for the thematic reasons I pointed out throughout the rest of 1 John. But if you didn't agree when I laid them out, then we're unlikely to reach accord at this point. The rest of your comments flowed from this central issue.

OK. Lets say that I affirm your point that this particular passage is saying that the anti-christs were never Christian.

FINE.

So then what? Even if we are to affirm this, this passage still says nothing about the possibility of people having true faith and then rejecting it....

In other words, if all this passage says is something like:

"Look, see these antichrists....well they have hung out with Christians...but they were never really true Christians....if they were, they would have continued with us Christians....but since they didn't continue with us Christians...its obvious that they are not of us."


It still says nothing about the possibility of somebody having "true" faith and then rejecting it.....everyone, Calvinist and Arminian would affirm that there are people who are never Christian but hang out in Christian circles....

The idea that there are people who are never saved (although they are "in" the Church) by no means excludes the possibility of someone actually having "true" faith and then leaving it....

It simply does not follow...

[Phat8594]

thematic reasons I pointed out throughout the rest of 1 John. But if you didn't agree when I laid them out, then we're unlikely to reach accord at this point. The rest of your comments flowed from this central issue.

PS, I agree that the themes you mentioned run through 1 John. In fact they are directly related to the false teachings of the gnostics. John is addressing the gnostics and their teachings in this letters.

I just do not see these themes as a basis to apply 2:19 to eternal security.

My contention is that the letter needs to be understood within the cultural context in which it is written...and our argument should flow from there...

[Littlejoe]

PHat....FYI, you have up 45 minutes to edit your previous post (I'm pretty sure that's right). You should have an edit button on the bottom toolbar of your post next to the reply and quote buttons. Using that will save you from doing back to back posts which are usually frowned upon...

LJ

[Rdr. Arsenios]

OK. Lets say that I affirm your point that this particular passage is saying that the anti-christs were never Christian.

That was not RB's point - It was mine, which I asked RB to either affirm or deny, and he has not responded...

John does indeed identify them as anti-Christs, but I would be careful in understanding this term too...

There are anti-Christs in every era...

They are a part of the ongoing Revelation/Apocalypse of then Life of the Church, the Woman in Revelation...

Harbingers of the end of time...

Arsenios

[RBerman]

OK. Lets say that I affirm your point that this particular passage is saying that the anti-christs were never Christian. FINE. So then what? Even if we are to affirm this, this passage still says nothing about the possibility of people having true faith and then rejecting it.

In other words, if all this passage says is something like: "Look, see these antichrists....well they have hung out with Christians...but they were never really true Christians....if they were, they would have continued with us Christians....but since they didn't continue with us Christians...its obvious that they are not of us." It still says nothing about the possibility of somebody having "true" faith and then rejecting it.....everyone, Calvinist and Arminian would affirm that there are people who are never Christian but hang out in Christian circles. The idea that there are people who are never saved (although they are "in" the Church) by no means excludes the possibility of someone actually having "true" faith and then leaving it. It simply does not follow...

You are correct that the reality of false Christians does not itself prove that true Christians never lose their salvation. Hopefully nothing I said implied such a thing. 37818 did imply that back in post #20, though.

PS, I agree that the themes you mentioned run through 1 John. In fact they are directly related to the false teachings of the gnostics. John is addressing the gnostics and their teachings in this letters. I just do not see these themes as a basis to apply 2:19 to eternal security.My contention is that the letter needs to be understood within the cultural context in which it is written...and our argument should flow from there...

I certainly agree with that last sentence. It seems reasonable to me to apply the theme of the whole letter to 2:19's particular observation.

[Phat8594]

You are correct that the reality of false Christians does not itself prove that true Christians never lose their salvation. Hopefully nothing I said implied such a thing. 37818 did imply that back in post #20, though

Fair enough. I am glad you clarified, because I was under the impression that you were arguing such. Sorry if I misunderstood.

However, I am glad we can agree on this point.

[RBerman]

Fair enough. I am glad you clarified, because I was under the impression that you were arguing such. Sorry if I misunderstood.

No problem. I entered the debate (post #37) in response to Remonstrant's post claiming that there was no generalizable principle taught in 1 John 2:19. It appears that you and I agree that there is a generalizable principle, although we disagree about what that principle is.

However, I am glad we can agree on this point.

Me too! But then, despite our differences, we agree on many more things.

[Phat8594]

No problem. I entered the debate (post #37) in response to Remonstrant's post claiming that there was no generalizable principle taught in 1 John 2:19. It appears that you and I agree that there is a generalizable principle, although we disagree about what that principle is

So just to clarify...what is the principle that you see being taught in 1 John 2:19?

[RBerman]

So just to clarify...what is the principle that you see being taught in 1 John 2:19?

That each man acts according to his nature. A familiar refrain from me, I know.

[37818]

It is a covenental relationship between God and man - Man can do nothing to earn God's Grace, but in this covenant, God agrees to give us His Grace IF we obey His commandments...

So yes, you are right, we cannot earn God's Grace by works, but because of the Body and Blood of the New Covenant with Christ, we cannot attain that [salvational] Grace without keeping our side of the covenant's commandments of Christ... The commandments are God's to give, and man's to obey... Faith is the obeying of God's commandments, and thereby keeping our side of the covenant with God... And we know that God is faithful and will keep His side...

Arsenios

Faith is first of the two instructions [commandments], and the only means through which God grants us His unmerited [on our part] favor [grace]. The second instruction follows our receiving God's grace, our loving the brethren.

1 John 3:23,

And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

[37818]

37818, I did all that detailed argumentation above and this is all I get?

I apologize, I often do not have much time to comment. If there is some point you would like me to comment on. I'll do one at a time. Not a whole set.

To comment fully, would take me, maybe not someone else, a number of hours, Something I'm not able to do in less than 20 minutes. And I'm out of time with this post.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Faith is first of the two instructions [commandments], and the only means through which God grants us His unmerited [on our part] favor [grace]. The second instruction follows our receiving God's grace, our loving the brethren.

1 John 3:23,

And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Repentance and Baptism are the first two commandments - Indeed, they are Gospel of Good News - For the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand...

Now you are right that IF you do not BELIEVE that the Kingdom of Heaven is AT HAND, then you will neither repent nor be baptized...
But mere belief is not enough - One must ALSO do the WORKS of one's belief,
or else be numbered among the hypocrites who preach what they do not practice, and THAT is not FAITH...
And faith is not a commandment, but a choice - As Paul writes: "I die daily..."
We are not commanded to have faith, but to be faithful...

"If anyone desires to follow after Me, let him first deny himself,..."

So you can see that following Christ unto salvation is CONDITIONAL...
The FIRST word from Christ Himself is the word: IF ...
YOU are the ONLY one who supplies that IF...
And that word IF applies to ALL...
Because the second word is ANY...

The Gospel is preached to ALL but only SOME are called, and of these, few are chosen...

And the instruction by Christ to His chosen Apostles is this:

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and disciple all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

You see, the discipling of the Nations was to be teaching them to OBEY all Christ's Commandments... ALL of them...
THEN, in this state of repentance, to BAPTIZE them into Christ, even into His Death on the Cross...
THIS GREAT WORK, of repentance and obedience to all the commandments of our Lord, IS the FAITH given once for all to the Apostles...

IF you think that the FAITH is a Commandment, then you think Faith is a WORK...

But the truth is, the Faith which is a GREAT work, is itself a Gift...
It is an invitation to the Feast of our Lord...
The Covenant of the Body and Blood of Christ...

And within this great work, we are commanded to love God and neighbor...

Arsenios

[Phat8594]

That each man acts according to his nature. A familiar refrain from me, I know.

Yes, a familiar refrain indeed.

However, I guess I am still confused. If, as you have agreed, this passage does not teach anything about the possibility of leaving true faith behind...how can we say that this passage teaches that each man "acts according to his nature" as a general principle. In other words, what in this passage gives us the reason to apply an example about a particular group (antichrists...and lets assume they never believed) to everyone?


Sure, this passage may be consistent with such an idea (seen through Calvinist doctrine)...but its also consistent with the Arminian side as well. Consistency does not equate to proofof certainty; at best, it is circumstantial evidence that fits both theologies.

[RBerman]

However, I guess I am still confused. If, as you have agreed, this passage does not teach anything about the possibility of leaving true faith behind...how can we say that this passage teaches that each man "acts according to his nature" as a general principle. In other words, what in this passage gives us the reason to apply an example about a particular group (antichrists...and lets assume they never believed) to everyone? Sure, this passage may be consistent with such an idea (seen through Calvinist doctrine)...but its also consistent with the Arminian side as well. Consistency does not equate to proofof certainty; at best, it is circumstantial evidence that fits both theologies.

The whole book of 1 John is about how people act according to their nature. Those who are "born of God" declare themselves by acting one way, and those "born of the devil" act another way-- in what they say about Jesus, in how they treat each other, in the purity of their lives. So the entire book is predicated on the premise that you can tell what someone is like based on what comes out of them. That the tree is known by its fruit. Not a novel concept, surely.

Speaking of behavior revealing nature, what do you think of this verse that came up in my study today?

Hebrews 3:14

we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Speaking of behavior revealing nature, what do you think of this verse that came up in my study today?

Hebrews 3:14

we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.

metoxoi gar gegonamen tou Xristou
eanper
thn arxhn thv upostasewv mexri telouv bebaian katascwmen

Here is a hyperliteral rendering - my own...

"For we had become partakers of Christ
IF SO EVER
we should have kept firm possession of the originating of the hypostasis firm until the end"

Here is the Orthodox New Testament vol II translation of 3:14

"For we have become partakers of Christ,
if indeed
we should hold fast the first principle of our subsistence firm even unto the end."

It clearly shows the conditional nature of our partaking of Christ...
WE carry the IF of such a partaking...
At least if you believe this passage...

And it goes without saying that God therein provides the THEN - eg the PARTAKING...

Arsenios