April 2012 Screwballs

[ukchristian28]

I can see why J.P doesn't believe in personal testimonies about how people come to faith in Christ. The person who runs this blog attacks William Lane Craig for coming to faith in Christ for subjective reasons. Never-mind the arguments Craig makes now.

http://thefloatinglantern.wordpress....e-a-christian/

[fm93]

Now, I never actually understood Dr. Craig's whole "inner witness of the Holy Spirit" thing, but I suspect that it's more complex than the blogger has made it out to be.

[ApologiaPhoenix]

Now, I never actually understood Dr. Craig's whole "inner witness of the Holy Spirit" thing, but I suspect that it's more complex than the blogger has made it out to be.

From what I've seen it's not. I wish he'd drop it.

[Rational Gaze]

For me, the "inner witness of the Holy Spirit" is something you receive AFTER you come to Christ. Although I guess you could have some kind of religious experience/encounter of the Holy Spirit prior to coming to Christ, and come to Christ on the basis of that, which seems to me what Craig seems to be arguing. His argument about the proper basicality of Christianity based on the "inner witness of the Holy Spirit" (which he borrowed from Plantinga) is a means of knowing Christianity to be true.

[Leonhard]

From what I've seen it's not. I wish he'd drop it.

His advice didn't help me.

[ApologiaPhoenix]

His advice didn't help me.

What advice was that?

[Leonhard]

What advice was that?

To just trust in that inner witness he's referring to. That's emotion or what we're going to describe it left me during a powerful year long depression and didn't return. It was around the time I think I chatted a lot with you. Wasn't much in a position do anything else, had trouble getting apologetics books home and internet articles only take you so far. Amazon kept bongling up the addresses. Searched, prayed, didn't help. It wasn't a reliable foundation for faith.

[ApologiaPhoenix]

It's a terrible foundation. The best response I can give is to look at the facts. Did Jesus rise? That's the only question that needs to be answered.

[Cerebrum123]

True, but the guy I am 'debating' is a humanist. I did post a lengthy response (Facebook annoyingly has an 8,000 character limit, meaning I have to break such responses up.) It will be interesting to see how he has responded, given that I quoted two medical journals explicitly stating that survival of crucifixion is impossible. I will probably read his response sometime tomorrow... or today rather, since it almost 3am here. My expectations are not set rather high.

I was thinking that maybe he had heard about the swoon theory, and thought it made more sense than what really happened(of course it doesn't, but since when do you really find an atheist who thinks the Resurrection makes sense?).

[Teluog]

I can see why J.P doesn't believe in personal testimonies about how people come to faith in Christ. The person who runs this blog attacks William Lane Craig for coming to faith in Christ for subjective reasons. Never-mind the arguments Craig makes now.

http://thefloatinglantern.wordpress....e-a-christian/

By hopping through that guy's blog, I came across this, which I fear will turn out terrible: http://givemesexjesus.com/

[Benson Shays]

From what I've seen it's not. I wish he'd drop it.

It's a strange idea coming from a man who spends so much time meticulously destroying atheism. I heard him defend it during a debate with Christopher Hitchens and I thought, "um, what, Bill?" It seems to contradict his reasonable faith approach.

[Raphael]

It's a strange idea coming from a man who spends so much time meticulously destroying atheism. I heard him defend it during a debate with Christopher Hitchens and I thought, "um, what, Bill?" It seems to contradict his reasonable faith approach.

Perhaps for him it is what brought about his final steps of coming to the Cross?

I know a fair number of people where it wasn't until they had what can only be termed an encounter with God (not quite the level of Paul's Damascus Road, but certainly similarities) that they finally accepted Christ. They had heard the argument, they had heard the Apologetics, but the final piece in the puzzle was exactly that internal confirmation.

[Benson Shays]

Perhaps for him it is what brought about his final steps of coming to the Cross?

I know a fair number of people where it wasn't until they had what can only be termed an encounter with God (not quite the level of Paul's Damascus Road, but certainly similarities) that they finally accepted Christ. They had heard the argument, they had heard the Apologetics, but the final piece in the puzzle was exactly that internal confirmation.

Maybe. I only speak from personal experience (obviously), but I've never had the moment Craig talks about. Still, I can't imagine it's a convincing argument to the people he's addressing.

[ukchristian28]

There's a teenager I am talking to on Facebook who was a Christian some months ago but fell away from the faith. Someone sent him the video above and he pretty much admitted it could have been written for him. I believe strongly in providing a rational, evidence based presentation for the Christian faith, but I also think there are people like my young friend who really don't need arguments because they already know the truth. They just need to be told to stop running as the song says.

[Raphael]

Maybe. I only speak from personal experience (obviously), but I've never had the moment Craig talks about. Still, I can't imagine it's a convincing argument to the people he's addressing.

I don't think every needs to have that experience. I didn't really have one (although I did have a point of "aha" when I was in my mid teens where I went from being a christian to being a Christian.)

My one brother did have that moment though. He went to Splashy looking mostly to get high and listen to music (he celebrated his 21st by shooting up on heroin for the first time). He had grown up in a Christian home (my Dad got saved during the Charismatic renewal, my folks did a huge amount of outreach in Hindu communities). Had the head knowledge. At Splashy he and a friend of his had that type of Damascus Road encounter. Both of them quit drugs that day. His friend now pastors a Church in South Africa, and my brother is still a very committed Christian (this was over 15 years ago now).