Theologywebbers: Travelers or Balconeers

[nightbringer]

Amen to loving the Gospel and the Lord of the Gospel.

What do you mean by "firmly on the road"? I'm not quite sure what you meant by that.

My first impression was that maybe you'd like to do more that is gospel outreach related. If that is the case, I agree with you. But some of us are more limited in others in that way, and I for one don't get to "travel" as much as I'd like. But we've got to do the best we can with what we have been given.

I mean pretty much what I said just before that sentence. Rather than living in light of the gospel, on the "road" of the gospel, I spend much of my time hovering above it wondering whether it's intellectually safe to walk down it. Though really that's more fear driven than rationally driven. And I haven't always understood that fact about myself.

[theblueprint_Ni]

I mean pretty much what I said just before that sentence. Rather than living in light of the gospel, on the "road" of the gospel, I spend much of my time hovering above it wondering whether it's intellectually safe to walk down it. Though really that's more fear driven than rationally driven. And I haven't always understood that fact about myself.

If you have the time for a good read, might I suggest To the Golden Shore. If you've never heard of it, it's a biography of Adoniram Judson, the first Baptist American to do foreign missions (late 18th to mid 19th century). He was the son of a fundamentalist pastor and embraced deism until he graduated college and eventually spent his life proclaiming Christ to the Burmese through great and pressing trials. It's very compelling and heart felt. It could be a good break from spiritual self-help or academic literature if that's the kind of thing you might usually get into.

[nightbringer]

If you have the time for a good read, might I suggest To the Golden Shore. If you've never heard of it, it's a biography of Adoniram Judson, the first Baptist American to do foreign missions (late 18th to mid 19th century). He was the son of a fundamentalist pastor and embraced deism until he graduated college and eventually spent his life proclaiming Christ to the Burmese through great and pressing trials. It's very compelling and heart felt. It could be a good break from spiritual self-help or academic literature if that's the kind of thing you might usually get into.

Thanks. I'm sure it's a good read and I probably could stand to read more books of that kind. But I should say, the kind of worry I'm talking about isn't the result of spending too much time in academic books or self-focussed spirituality (although that can exacerbate it.) Its source is deeper; it's a sort of neurotic and unhealthy worry that spills over into all sorts of aspects of my life. I'm taking steps to overcome it though.

[Jedidiah]

You are on the right track. Most folks know enough, but need to apply it.

[Cow Poke]

Apparently, J.I. Packer's analogy in the book "Knowing God" refers to a traveler who is not simply stuck in a permanent state of searching, but who's actively living the faith he's discussing

I have to share a story about Dr. Packer. Back in the mid 80's, I was involved with a Texas Youth program called "Super Summer". We rented out Baylor University for 2 weeks, and had a couple thousand youths come for some intense schooling in the Christian Life. I was the "Dean" of the "Blue School", comprised of High School Students.

Since so many parents came to serve as volunteers and support people, there was also a "school" for adults in the evenings. Dr. J.I. Packer was the speaker one year for such a school, and, as it happened, I was assigned the "extra duty" of being his host -- making sure he got from his hotel to meals, then to his speaking engagements. It was an incredible opportunity to get to know this amazing Christian man.

One day we were having lunch at Memorial Hall (Baylor) and a couple of (obviously) young Seminary Students came up and asked Dr. Packer if they could ask him a question. He was very gracious, and encouraged them to ask, saying (in his British Columbia accent), "well, I shall do my best to answer".

The question was long and painful and deep, having to do with ontological soteriolgerical neumaticalistic eschatology or something - I got lost in the question. While they were asking the question, Dr. Packer continued eating, but kept his eyes on them, taking in the question.

When they finished, Dr. Packer had just raised a fork of green beans to his mouth, but stopped, and laid the fork of green beans back on his plate, folded his hands, and replied.....

"Young men... there are some things God does, that we don't know WHY He does them --- we just know that He does them". He smiled, then picked up his fork of green beans, and the Seminar students walked away quite impressed.

I was too. I had never heard anybody so ELEGANTLY say, "I don't know".

It was a lesson to me... there are things we do NOT know, and we might as well just admit it.

[Adrift]

I have to share a story about Dr. Packer. Back in the mid 80's, I was involved with a Texas Youth program called "Super Summer". We rented out Baylor University for 2 weeks, and had a couple thousand youths come for some intense schooling in the Christian Life. I was the "Dean" of the "Blue School", comprised of High School Students.

Since so many parents came to serve as volunteers and support people, there was also a "school" for adults in the evenings. Dr. J.I. Packer was the speaker one year for such a school, and, as it happened, I was assigned the "extra duty" of being his host -- making sure he got from his hotel to meals, then to his speaking engagements. It was an incredible opportunity to get to know this amazing Christian man.

One day we were having lunch at Memorial Hall (Baylor) and a couple of (obviously) young Seminary Students came up and asked Dr. Packer if they could ask him a question. He was very gracious, and encouraged them to ask, saying (in his British Columbia accent), "well, I shall do my best to answer".

The question was long and painful and deep, having to do with ontological soteriolgerical neumaticalistic eschatology or something - I got lost in the question. While they were asking the question, Dr. Packer continued eating, but kept his eyes on them, taking in the question.

When they finished, Dr. Packer had just raised a fork of green beans to his mouth, but stopped, and laid the fork of green beans back on his plate, folded his hands, and replied.....

"Young men... there are some things God does, that we don't know WHY He does them --- we just know that He does them". He smiled, then picked up his fork of green beans, and the Seminar students walked away quite impressed.

I was too. I had never heard anybody so ELEGANTLY say, "I don't know".

It was a lesson to me... there are things we do NOT know, and we might as well just admit it.

Just... amazing.

[Cow Poke]

Just... amazing.

That actually developed into a Sermon I love to preach when I get a chance.. I call it "I don't Know".... and it's based on the blind man who Jesus gave back his sight (John 9)... the "bad guys" kept hammering him (and his parents) about who did this and how did it happen, and he, basically, kept saying, "All I know is that I used to couldn't see, and now I can!" (The gospel according to CP )

I go on to explain that I can't always answer everybody's questions, but It's OK to say "I don't know"... giving the illustration, of course, of Dr. Packer. If HE can say "I don't know", I can too! (Obviously, he didn't SAY "I don't know... just IN EFFECT, he said it, and I'm careful to point that out)

But I bring home the importance of the point... there are a lot of things I do not know, but THIS I KNOW... that I once was lost, and now am saved, was blind, but now I see.... Amazing Grace!

Sometimes, we're NOT going to win people to Jesus by our arguments or logic or reason, but by our personal testimony... I don't understand HOW believing in Jesus gives me Eternal Life, or that one Man dying on a cross can save me ... I don't know HOW that works, but I know that I once was lost and now am found.

I really am glad there is "apologetics", and I am fully aware of Peter's admonishment to "always be ready to give an answer"... but there are SOME things we simply do not know. And SOME things we THINK we know, but we're wrong.

Many times, God has blessed "let me tell you what Jesus has done in my own life"...

I tell people, "you may not know a whole lot about the Bible, or apologetics, or theology.... but only YOU are a subject matter expert in what happened to YOU when Jesus saved you".

[Adrift]

That actually developed into a Sermon I love to preach when I get a chance.. I call it "I don't Know".... and it's based on the blind man who Jesus gave back his sight (John 9)... the "bad guys" kept hammering him (and his parents) about who did this and how did it happen, and he, basically, kept saying, "All I know is that I used to couldn't see, and now I can!" (The gospel according to CP )

I go on to explain that I can't always answer everybody's questions, but It's OK to say "I don't know"... giving the illustration, of course, of Dr. Packer. If HE can say "I don't know", I can too! (Obviously, he didn't SAY "I don't know... just IN EFFECT, he said it, and I'm careful to point that out)

But I bring home the importance of the point... there are a lot of things I do not know, but THIS I KNOW... that I once was lost, and now am saved, was blind, but now I see.... Amazing Grace!

Sometimes, we're NOT going to win people to Jesus by our arguments or logic or reason, but by our personal testimony... I don't understand HOW believing in Jesus gives me Eternal Life, or that one Man dying on a cross can save me ... I don't know HOW that works, but I know that I once was lost and now am found.

I really am glad there is "apologetics", and I am fully aware of Peter's admonishment to "always be ready to give an answer"... but there are SOME things we simply do not know. And SOME things we THINK we know, but we're wrong.

Many times, God has blessed "let me tell you what Jesus has done in my own life"...

I tell people, "you may not know a whole lot about the Bible, or apologetics, or theology.... but only YOU are a subject matter expert in what happened to YOU when Jesus saved you".

Yeah, I think it was in an interview I was listening to recently with Norman Geisler who said something to the effect that there were not 4 Gospels, but 5. Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and you.

[Cow Poke]

Yeah, I think it was in an interview I was listening to recently with Norman Geisler who said something to the effect that there were not 4 Gospels, but 5. Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and you.

I never heard that --- that's interesting! I think I'll source that and use it!

[Cow Poke]

OK, taking up a lot of space here, but this is a good topic.

Here's how I see Christianity. We're all soldiers in the Lord's Army, right? (Put on the whole armor... endure as a good soldier.... fight the fight.... etc...)

There are a lot of people who want to be Generals and Colonels and Majors and upper level commanders.

My dad told me about a Sergeant he served with in WWII. This guy was a seasoned soldier, and a great leader. He led both by example and by good communication with his guys.

"HQ" would often send "just recently commissioned" "Second Looies" (2nd Lieutenants) to command their outfit, and time after time the Second Looie would make a mess of things, trying to run things "by the book" or from stuff he learned "in school", and the Sergeant would have to bail him out.

One particular Second Looie showed up one day, and my dad was kind of impressed, because this guy was a wheat farmer from Kansas who seemed a lot more "practical" than some of the other "educated" officers. And, sure enough, this Second Looie came into the mess hall where my dad was having coffee with the Sergeant, and the Second Looie sat down with them and said something like....

"Look... I'm new here, and I don't have a clue what's going in the field... it seems STUPID for me to standing around barking orders when you (the Sergeant) have the experience and the "lay of the land". So here's the deal... you run the outfit, consult with me, I'll run interference with the Brass, and let's try to keep each others butts out of the crack. YOUR job is to keep me from looking stupid, and MY job is to keep the Brass off your back".

I don't know HOW MANY times my dad told that story, but it just makes so much sense. EVER SINCE then, I've wanted to be "the Sergeant in the field", and have had little interest in being the "General" or CinC or the "Pentagon".

Over time, and because of my gray hair and experience, maybe I'm a Lieutenant now, instead of a Sergeant, but I still fully understand that it's the "guys in the field" who make a difference, not the "thinkers" back at the Pentagon.

(I'm sure I've insulted somebody by this, but that's honestly not my intent)

[Jedidiah]

But I bring home the importance of the point... there are a lot of things I do not know, but THIS I KNOW... that I once was lost, and now am saved, was blind, but now I see.... Amazing Grace!

. . . "always be ready to give an answer"...

These two things are, as I see it, the real heart of evangelism.

[Adrift]

OK, taking up a lot of space here, but this is a good topic.

Here's how I see Christianity. We're all soldiers in the Lord's Army, right? (Put on the whole armor... endure as a good soldier.... fight the fight.... etc...)

There are a lot of people who want to be Generals and Colonels and Majors and upper level commanders.

My dad told me about a Sergeant he served with in WWII. This guy was a seasoned soldier, and a great leader. He led both by example and by good communication with his guys.

"HQ" would often send "just recently commissioned" "Second Looies" (2nd Lieutenants) to command their outfit, and time after time the Second Looie would make a mess of things, trying to run things "by the book" or from stuff he learned "in school", and the Sergeant would have to bail him out.

One particular Second Looie showed up one day, and my dad was kind of impressed, because this guy was a wheat farmer from Kansas who seemed a lot more "practical" than some of the other "educated" officers. And, sure enough, this Second Looie came into the mess hall where my dad was having coffee with the Sergeant, and the Second Looie sat down with them and said something like....

"Look... I'm new here, and I don't have a clue what's going in the field... it seems STUPID for me to standing around barking orders when you (the Sergeant) have the experience and the "lay of the land". So here's the deal... you run the outfit, consult with me, I'll run interference with the Brass, and let's try to keep each others butts out of the crack. YOUR job is to keep me from looking stupid, and MY job is to keep the Brass off your back".

I don't know HOW MANY times my dad told that story, but it just makes so much sense. EVER SINCE then, I've wanted to be "the Sergeant in the field", and have had little interest in being the "General" or CinC or the "Pentagon".

Over time, and because of my gray hair and experience, maybe I'm a Lieutenant now, instead of a Sergeant, but I still fully understand that it's the "guys in the field" who make a difference, not the "thinkers" back at the Pentagon.

(I'm sure I've insulted somebody by this, but that's honestly not my intent)

I suppose the problem is that there are too many soldiers in the field who've never been trained, or are using outdated weapons and techniques, and while this is often because of officers not preparing the soldiers, Christians should have a burning desire to prepare themselves. Unfortunately too many Christians are content not knowing anything, and that can only hurt themselves and the preaching of the Gospel. There really needs to be a balance, but often people lean too far one way or the other.

[KingsGambit]

Or perhaps to press the analogy further than anybody intended it, sometimes we're on one mission when we really should be on the other. Being all things to all people... to me, that means that other people might have different needs than others and we need to be cognizant of that...

[Cow Poke]

I suppose the problem is that there are too many soldiers in the field who've never been trained, or are using outdated weapons and techniques, and while this is often because of officers not preparing the soldiers, Christians should have a burning desire to prepare themselves. Unfortunately too many Christians are content not knowing anything, and that can only hurt themselves and the preaching of the Gospel. There really needs to be a balance, but often people lean too far one way or the other.

Well, yeah, and I think PART of this is that SOME of the "officers" (Pastors) are more interested in quantity than quality. We used to call it "nickels and noses".... how big the budget is and how many people attend.

I actually made up a Sunday Night series called "Commando Christians", borrowing from the "smaller, lighter, faster" units the military is deploying where a SMALL team is made up of 6 to 10 men, ALL OF WHOM are cross-trained in each others' skill or primary functions. Rather than have a big "org chart" of rank, each man, REGARDLESS of rank, is accountable to whoever is the team leader for that mission, and work together to accomplish their tasks.

One of my favorite Blackaby quotes is something like "Even a small handful of people, in the hand of God, can do anything God can do". I'd rather have a small band of fired up Christian brothers and sisters than a WHOLE GYMNASIUM full of folks who only show up to sing 45 minutes of "praise music" then listen to a "teaching" and go home. (This is NOT to say that there are not "fired up Christians" among that type of worship.)

And, yes, too often, we get people "saved and baptized" then never disciple them, moving on, instead, to the next "targets".

[Rushing Jaws]

I guess I should have read the OP before jumping in;)

Most of the members who post seem to have a very strong position as either Christian, agnostic and atheist. Who knows about the lurkers . . . . are they the balconeers?

I seldom have seen someone actually change a position here on TWeb, or just ask questions as a way of inquiry to clarify their own beliefs; or honestly test whether what they intellectually understand can be fit into a Biblical model.

One of the extremes are some that have so hardened there position . . . like phank in NS301, an atheist . . . that if irrefutable evidence were to hit him in the head that ALL that is written in the NT is true he would not believe it.

On the other hand there are probably people like that in Christian's on Tweb.

Then there are people like Doug . . . who I used to think was reasonable but have come to think that he is just grinding his atheist/agnostic ax like so many others on this site.

On the Christian side . . . it's harder for me to tell. Especially among the YEC set there are probably some who would refuse to abandon Christianity even if everything a Christian cherishes were contradicted.

Sometimes I wonder . . . what I would do if irrefutable evidence came to light that completely contradicted the ministry of Jesus like the discovery of a grave site . . . anyway you get the idea.

Or a tablet with a signed statement by Jesus that it was all a joke and ha ha . . . etc.

Would I be a Christian still . . . well . . . not in the sense that I am know at least. I might even become Jewish.

When I read some of the dialogues of some of the posts here . . . I clearly get the impression that there is no seeking going on especially between atheist, agnostic vs. Christians. This can plainly be seen in posts by Burt, and that atheist bunch. In my opinion they are here just for the fun of it and to be part of the "opposition" to religion in general and especially to Christianity. There is no seeking to understand at all. It is pure Troll. This is the bunch that I reserve my wrath for.

I'd love to see an honest accounting of why all Twebbers comment on TWeb but I think that is a wish that I'll never see fulfilled . . . and it will only be in Heaven that I will truly understand the . . . well, the really bizarre positions I've seen taken here on Tweb. I only hope that the lurkers who just observe are influenced to some degree in their own journeys down the right path and that some find Christ on the way.

## If there were irrefutable evidence for the non-existence of Christ, I would discount it. Faith is not based on historical evidence - it's based on God. Therefore no amount of evidence from history, a created & human thing, can be sufficient evidence for the non-existence of Christ. Reason has its uses, but it is not rightly used if it used to disqualify its Creator. God is not a conclusion to be arrived at by reason, but the solid and certain starting-point from which Christians begin. An argument against God is invalidated by being against God; regardless of how intelligent it maybe. It's about words - it takes no account of the reality of God.

That, or something like it, is my answer to Homer Simpson's knock-down argument for the non-existence of God. Such an argument is futile, because it is an exercise in what is both imaginary and impossible. People can't be argued into faith, any more than they can be argued into love. Christ can be proclaimed, but not proved to be true: He is a Divine person, not a proposition in Euclid.