A Mormon Testimony. The foundation and the superstructure.

[OtherCheek]

Wow --- you're really stretching the credibility!

Here is what came through Joseph Smith regarding Jesus being the only name under heaven whereby salvation can come:

Doctrine and Covenants 18:23
Behold, Jesus Christ is the name which is given of the Father, and there is none other name given whereby man can be saved;

Doctrine and Covenants 20:29
And we know that all men must repent and believe on the name of Jesus Christ, and worship the Father in his name, and endure in faith on his name to the end, or they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God.

Mosiah 3:17
And moreover, I say unto you, that there shall be no other name given nor any other way nor means whereby salvation can come unto the children of men, only in and through the name of Christ, the Lord Omnipotent.

Mosiah 5:8
And under this head ye are made free, and there is no other head whereby ye can be made free. There is no other name given whereby salvation cometh; therefore, I would that ye should take upon you the name of Christ, all you that have entered into the covenant with God that ye should be obedient unto the end of your lives.

2 Nephi 31:21
And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

2 Nephi 25:20
And now, my brethren, I have spoken plainly that ye cannot err. And as the Lord God liveth that brought Israel up out of the land of Egypt, and gave unto Moses power that he should heal the nations after they had been bitten by the poisonous serpents, if they would cast their eyes unto the serpent which he did raise up before them, and also gave him power that he should smite the rock and the water should come forth; yea, behold I say unto you, that as these things are true, and as the Lord God liveth, there is none other name given under heaven save it be this Jesus Christ, of which I have spoken, whereby man can be saved.

Joseph is NOT at the gate. Perhaps he is a sentinel then.

2 Nephi 9:41
O then, my beloved brethren, come unto the Lord, the Holy One. Remember that his paths are righteous. Behold, the way for man is narrow, but it lieth in a straight course before him, and the keeper of the gate is the Holy One of Israel; and he employeth no servant there; and there is none other way save it be by the gate; for he cannot be deceived, for the Lord God is his name.

Moses 6:52
And he also said unto him: If thou wilt turn unto me, and hearken unto my voice, and believe, and repent of all thy transgressions, and be baptized, even in water, in the name of mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth, which is Jesus Christ, the only name which shall be given under heaven, whereby salvation shall come unto the children of men, ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, asking all things in his name, and whatsoever ye shall ask, it shall be given you.

It is pretty clear to me that Joseph Smith taught and knew that Jesus Christ is the ONLY NAME whereby salvation can come.

[Cow Poke]

Here is what came through Joseph Smith regarding Jesus being the only name under heaven whereby salvation can come:

TOTALLY beside the point, OC! When WE claim that somebody said something, you guys fall all over yourselves with the whole "continuing revelation" thing. NEWER prophets can totally change what other prophets have said, INCLUDING what SMITH said!

NOW, however, you want to go back to what Smith said. You can't have it both ways. As late as 1988, and, for all I know, continuing even TODAY, your Church teaches ""If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by Joseph Smith; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him."

And all your attempts to change what this is saying are futile. FIRST you deny knowing anything about this being taught other than by Brigham Young, and NOW you are back peddling like a circus clown.

[OtherCheek]

Different topic. NOT what is being taught in having to confess Christ AND Smith.

You could still address them and tell me WHY they are not related in any way to what we are talking about.

Anyway, I wonder if any of the people in N.T. times will need to confess that the words of Paul were true or if they can still be saved in the Kingdom of God, while believing they were false and that Paul was a false teacher.

[Cow Poke]

You could still address them and tell me WHY they are not related in any way to what we are talking about.

I wouldn't say they're not related IN ANY WAY, OC, but not in any substantial way to effect this conversation.

Anyway, I wonder if any of the people in N.T. times will need to confess that the words of Paul were true or if they can still be saved in the Kingdom of God, while believing they were false and that Paul was a false teacher.

Well, let's give that a shot... "If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by Paul; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him." I believe I can get to Heaven having NEVER HEARD of Paul. My passage into Heaven in through Jesus Christ my Lord, and His finished work on the Cross.

[OtherCheek]

And all your attempts to change what this is saying are futile.

Let me be more clear, then. I do believe God will place Joseph is a position of authority when people wish to enter the Kingdom of heaven. The exact name of that position, I don't know. But I do believe you and I cannot enter the Celestial Kingdom, while believing Joseph Smith was a false prophet. Nor could I imagine you or me entering the Kingdom of Heaven while believing that Paul was a false teacher and apostle.

FIRST you deny knowing anything about this being taught other than by Brigham Young,

And I'm baffled that you would assume that I wasn't telling the truth.

and NOW you are back peddling like a circus clown.

That makes no sense. I WAS unaware of all those quotes. I bet there are some quotes of past Baptist leaders that you don't have in your memory bank either. I was aware of the B.Y. quote, but never got bent out of shape over it because I DO believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet. But I can see where these quotes might cause concern for you.

Secondly, as I consider the quotes more and more, they make more and more sense to me and I have already explained why. And so I'm gonna waffle again for you and say that after giving these quotes more consideration than I normally would, I am a little bit surprised there are not more quotes like them.

[Cow Poke]

Let me be more clear, then. I do believe God will place Joseph is a position of authority when people wish to enter the Kingdom of heaven. The exact name of that position, I don't know. But I do believe you and I cannot enter the Celestial Kingdom, while believing Joseph Smith was a false prophet.

AH..... so, now you're FRONT peddling? You can believe that, OC, but it's a lie of the devil.

And I'm baffled that you would assume that I wasn't telling the truth.

It's either that, or believe that you're really ignorant of your Church's teachings -- particularly that part in the supposed Priesthood study notes.

That makes no sense. I WAS unaware of all those quotes. I bet there are some quotes of past Baptist leaders that you don't have in your memory bank either.

Past Baptist leaders don't pretend to be Prophets who "make Scripture", OC -- you know that. And if any of them said something as stupid as "you can't get to Heaven without Paul's blessing" or something like that ... if I EVER heard that ONE TIME, I promise you I'd remember it, because it would be a flat out lie.

I was aware of the B.Y. quote, but never got bent out of shape over it because I DO believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet. But I can see where these quotes might cause concern for you.

Secondly, as I consider the quotes more and more, they make more and more sense to me

OF COURSE THEY DO! They HAVE to! You have NO CHOICE!

and I have already explained why. And so I'm gonna waffle again for you and say that after giving these quotes more consideration than I normally would, I am a little bit surprised there are not more quotes like them.

Yup --- every wind that blows.

wow

[OtherCheek]

It's either that, or believe that you're really ignorant of your Church's teachings -- particularly that part in the supposed Priesthood study notes.

Well, it certainly isn't a core teaching and I don't have a steel trap memory. And no, I don't remember notes in 24 year old Priesthood Manuals.

Past Baptist leaders don't pretend to be Prophets who "make Scripture", OC -- you know that. And if any of them said something as stupid as "you can't get to Heaven without Paul's blessing" or something like that ... if I EVER heard that ONE TIME, I promise you I'd remember it, because it would be a flat out lie.

Excuses, excuses. You should still remember everything they taught from the pulpit.

wow

I just love it when you say "Wow". You almost sound convincing.

Anyway, here is the scripture I was thinking of:

Doctrine and Covenants 1:14
And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;

I wonder why it was so easy for the majority of Jews to reject the prophets and stone them instead of embracing them?

[Cow Poke]

You are demonstrating to me, OC, that you are a man who is unstable in all his ways.

FIRST, you try to discount the "Salvation requires belief in Joseph Smith" as a teaching of that nutcase (my words) Brigham Young, throwing him under the bus, yet again.
When confronted with much more recent teachings of this nonsense, you throw up unrelated scripture and concepts.
When I don't chase those rabbits, you produce the VERY SAME citations I brought up, and seem to embrace them, if not a bit tepidly.
Next thing you know, you are boldly declaring your belief and support of them, telling me that NEITHER of us will go to Heaven without accepting Smith as prophet.
THEN, you downplay this AGAIN, saying it's not a "core teaching".

To me, OC, anything I need to do to be saved is pretty "core".

I think, ONCE AGAIN, you got backed into a corner, and found no other option than to embrace this nonsense from your Church.
The notion that I have to accept Smith as a prophet in order to be saved is pure garbage.

It's all about Jesus, OC -- not a con man and liar named Smith.

[nrajeff]

The word is backPEDAL. Not backpeddle. Sheesh.

[Cow Poke]

The word is backPEDAL. Not backpeddle. Sheesh.

YES! THAT is what he was doing! Thanks, Jeff!


But, actually, if you think about it, "peddle" is to try to sell something, and that's what he's been doing, then backing away from it.


But, you're right, that's what he was doing!

[Xru]

The word is backPEDAL. Not backpeddle. Sheesh.

Oh great now we have a Grammar Nazi LDS Mormon! I quit.

[Xru]

You boys still playing, eh.

[Xru]

But I do believe you and I cannot enter the Celestial Kingdom, while believing Joseph Smith was a false prophet.

Oh my . . .

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Dooooooooooooooomed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I love my paste key stoke:)

[OtherCheek]

You are demonstrating to me, OC, that you are a man who is unstable in all his ways.

FIRST, you try to discount the "Salvation requires belief in Joseph Smith" as a teaching of that nutcase (my words) Brigham Young, throwing him under the bus, yet again.
When confronted with much more recent teachings of this nonsense, you throw up unrelated scripture and concepts.
When I don't chase those rabbits, you produce the VERY SAME citations I brought up, and seem to embrace them, if not a bit tepidly.
Next thing you know, you are boldly declaring your belief and support of them, telling me that NEITHER of us will go to Heaven without accepting Smith as prophet.
THEN, you downplay this AGAIN, saying it's not a "core teaching".

To me, OC, anything I need to do to be saved is pretty "core".

I think, ONCE AGAIN, you got backed into a corner, and found no other option than to embrace this nonsense from your Church.
The notion that I have to accept Smith as a prophet in order to be saved is pure garbage.

It's all about Jesus, OC -- not a con man and liar named Smith.

In the thousands of conference addresses and books, and statements made by the apostleship and 1st Presidency since Joseph's time, you find 5 statements that each use different language to express an idea that I have hardly considered because it is so rare? But which makes sense to me?

I've told you why this makes sense to me, and I never once tried to back away from it. My first response after you carefully set your trap was this:

First the trap is set by CP:

So, let's check that out, OC.... didn't your Church teach (and do they STILL teach) that nobody gets to Heaven without Smith's approval? (not exact words, of course, but you know what I mean)

Then I respond:

I don't know how many people taught that. I think Brigham Young did, but it has never been re-iterated by later prophets afaik. So either Brigham was not speaking as a prophet at the time, or I would want this teaching clarified and affirmed by additional prophets and leaders. Important doctrines of the Church are taught over and over and over by the leaders consistently throughout the years. I don't recall this teaching getting that kind of treatment.

But it could be true. The Bible speaks about the apostles judging the 12 tribes of Israel.

Luke 22:30
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Matthew 19:28
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

It makes sense to me that the people of THAT dispensation will be judged by the words of the prophets of THAT dispensation, and so it could well be that Joseph may play a similar role for the people of THIS dispensation.

And you think this becomes a "core doctrine" because it was expressed by different by 4 different leaders in different words FIVE WHOLE TIMES over the past 182 years? President Hinckley certainly didn't express it the way Brigham did. In fact, I have already stated my beliefs concerning the importance of Joseph Smith's teachings long before you set your little trap, and it's pretty close to what Pres. Hinckley's quote.

And it brings a "Wow" out of you that I don't remember the study notes from a Priesthood manual that is 24 years old?

And you don't respond to anything I have asked you regarding whether or nor a person can enter heaven while believing that Paul was a charlatan and a deceiver, and his were the words of a false teacher and false apostle?

Let me say this to make it clear to you.

I DON'T BELIEVE A PERSON CAN ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD UNLESS HE ACCEPTS PAUL AS A TRUE SERVANT AND APOSTLE OF CHRIST, INSTEAD OF BELIEVING THAT HE IS A LIAR OR A DECEIVER.

I DON'T BELIEVE A PERSON CAN ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD UNLESS HE ACCEPTS PETER AS A TRUE SERVANT AND APOSTLE OF CHRIST, INSTEAD OF BELIEVING THAT HE IS A LIAR OR A DECEIVER.

I DON'T BELIEVE A PERSON CAN ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD UNLESS HE ACCEPTS JAMES AS A TRUE SERVANT AND APOSTLE OF CHRIST, INSTEAD OF BELIEVING THAT HE IS A LIAR OR A DECEIVER.

I DON'T BELIEVE A PERSON CAN ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD UNLESS HE ACCEPTS TIMOTHY AS A TRUE SERVANT AND APOSTLE OF CHRIST, INSTEAD OF BELIEVING THAT HE IS A LIAR OR A DECEIVER.

I DON'T BELIEVE A PERSON CAN ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD UNLESS HE ACCEPTS ADAM AS A TRUE SERVANT AND PROPHET OF CHRIST, INSTEAD OF BELIEVING THAT HE IS A LIAR OR A DECEIVER.

I DON'T BELIEVE A PERSON CAN ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD UNLESS HE ACCEPTS ENOCH AS A TRUE SERVANT AND PROPHET OF CHRIST, INSTEAD OF BELIEVING THAT HE IS A LIAR OR A DECEIVER.

I DON'T BELIEVE A PERSON CAN ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD UNLESS HE ACCEPTS NOAH AS A TRUE SERVANT AND PROPHET OF CHRIST, INSTEAD OF BELIEVING THAT HE IS A LIAR OR A DECEIVER.

I DON'T BELIEVE A PERSON CAN ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD UNLESS HE ACCEPTS ABRAHAM, ISAAC, OR JACOB, OR ISAIAH, OR JEREMIAH, OR NEPHI, OR ANY OF THE PROPHETS AS A TRUE SERVANTS AND PROPHETS OF JESUS CHRIST, INSTEAD OF BELIEVING THAT THEY ARE ALL LIARS OR DECEIVERS.



AND...I DON'T BELIEVE A PERSON CAN ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD UNLESS HE ACCEPTS JOSEPH SMITH AS A TRUE SERVANT AND PROPHET OF CHRIST, INSTEAD OF BELIEVING THAT HE IS A LIAR OR A DECEIVER.

All those prophet and apostles I just mentioned are included part of what this scripture is talking about:
Doctrine and Covenants 1:14
And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;

"WOW!"

CP, your trap has sprung. It came up empty. And you got to say "wow". Now just give it up.

[Xru]

In the thousands of conference addresses and books, and statements made by the apostleship and 1st Presidency since Joseph's time, you find 5 statements that each use different language to express an idea that I have hardly considered because it is so rare? But which makes sense to me?

I've told you why this makes sense to me, and I never once tried to back away from it. My first response after you carefully set your trap was this:

First the trap is set by CP:


Then I respond:


And you think this becomes a "core doctrine" because it was expressed by different by 4 different leaders in different words FIVE WHOLE TIMES over the past 182 years? President Hinckley certainly didn't express it the way Brigham did. In fact, I have already stated my beliefs concerning the importance of Joseph Smith's teachings long before you set your little trap, and it's pretty close to what Pres. Hinckley's quote.

And it brings a "Wow" out of you that I don't remember the study notes from a Priesthood manual that is 24 years old?

And you don't respond to anything I have asked you regarding whether or nor a person can enter heaven while believing that Paul was a charlatan and a deceiver, and his were the words of a false teacher and false apostle?

Let me say this to make it clear to you.

I DON'T BELIEVE A PERSON CAN ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD UNLESS HE ACCEPTS PAUL AS A TRUE SERVANT AND APOSTLE OF CHRIST, INSTEAD OF BELIEVING THAT HE IS A LIAR OR A DECEIVER.

I DON'T BELIEVE A PERSON CAN ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD UNLESS HE ACCEPTS PETER AS A TRUE SERVANT AND APOSTLE OF CHRIST, INSTEAD OF BELIEVING THAT HE IS A LIAR OR A DECEIVER.

I DON'T BELIEVE A PERSON CAN ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD UNLESS HE ACCEPTS JAMES AS A TRUE SERVANT AND APOSTLE OF CHRIST, INSTEAD OF BELIEVING THAT HE IS A LIAR OR A DECEIVER.

I DON'T BELIEVE A PERSON CAN ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD UNLESS HE ACCEPTS TIMOTHY AS A TRUE SERVANT AND APOSTLE OF CHRIST, INSTEAD OF BELIEVING THAT HE IS A LIAR OR A DECEIVER.

AND...I DON'T BELIEVE A PERSON CAN ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD UNLESS HE ACCEPTS JOSEPH SMITH AS A TRUE SERVANT AND PROPHET OF CHRIST, INSTEAD OF BELIEVING THAT HE IS A LIAR OR A DECEIVER.

CP, your trap has sprung. It came up empty. And you got to say "wow". Now just give it up.

Now wait. . . I'm sure its just my lack of intelligence but . . .

Are you or are you not saying that . . . oh never mind.

In my limited grasp of the NT I've always thought that it was necessary to accept Jesus as Savior to enter the Kingdom and only Jesus. Who gives a crap about Smith, Paul, or the others.

I guess I'm just lost as usual. Frigid Highlanders are not known for their . . . intelligence.