Why was the sacrifice of Jesus Christ Necessary?

[Cow Poke]

But the atonement did not just give the Christ the power to forgive sins but also the power to resurrect and sanctify the repentant sinner.

Actually, He had the power to forgive sins BEFORE the atonement.

(Mat 9:2 KJV) And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.
(Mat 9:5 KJV) For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?
(Mark 2:5 KJV) When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.
(Mark 2:9 KJV) Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?
(Luke 5:20 KJV) And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.
(Luke 5:23 KJV) Whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Rise up and walk?
(Luke 7:47-48 KJV) Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little. {48} And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.

The Atonement did not make Him Christ, it was BECAUSE He was Christ that He could Atone.

[Tanakh Keeper]

I wish some others would join in the conversation.

Be careful what you wish for...

My question is, Given that your god had to sacrifice himself and it was necessary, then why the angry accusations of Jews as christ-killers? It seems we should be thanked for moving his plan along.

[Cow Poke]

Be careful what you wish for...

indeed!

My question is, Given that your god had to sacrifice himself and it was necessary, then why the angry accusations of Jews as christ-killers? It seems we should be thanked for moving his plan along.

I've wondered the same thing, TK... the way the whole thing plays out in the NT, the Jews were being Jews, sticking to their beliefs, and doing what they would be expected to do. I'm fully aware of the "hatred" of the Jews by Christianity over the years, but I have to agree that, in fact, they "played their part" in the plan.

I have no animosity whatsoever against Jews in general, and much of the NT is spent ministering to the Jews.

[eudyptes]

Be careful what you wish for...

My question is, Given that your god had to sacrifice himself and it was necessary, then why the angry accusations of Jews as christ-killers? It seems we should be thanked for moving his plan along.

I can't speak for all...but to me those who hurl angry accusations to Jews as "christ-killers" are narrow minded bigots - or very confused, most are looking for a reason to hate....and seem to have forgotten that Jesus himself...and the apostles were all Jews as well.

[Cow Poke]

I can't speak for all...but to me those who hurl angry accusations to Jews as "christ-killers" are narrow minded bigots, looking for a reason to hate....and seem to have forgotten that Jesus himself...and the apostles were all Jews as well.

I accidentally "amen'd" your post, Eudy, before realizing it was you who said it.

[eudyptes]

I accidentally "amen'd" your post, Eudy, before realizing it was you who said it.

are you saying you typically refuse to amen my posts? *sob* *whine* *dramatic pout*

[Cow Poke]

are you saying you typically refuse to amen my posts? *sob* *whine* *dramatic pout*

Only jokingly! I'm quite frequently impressed by your input, and the amen was, indeed, intentional.

[eudyptes]

Only jokingly! I'm quite frequently impressed by your input, and the amen was, indeed, intentional.

emphasis mine

may have to save that one off, for future reference.......

[onefour1]

Actually, He had the power to forgive sins BEFORE the atonement.

(Mat 9:2 KJV) And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.
(Mat 9:5 KJV) For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?
(Mark 2:5 KJV) When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.
(Mark 2:9 KJV) Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?
(Luke 5:20 KJV) And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.
(Luke 5:23 KJV) Whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Rise up and walk?
(Luke 7:47-48 KJV) Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little. {48} And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.

The Atonement did not make Him Christ, it was BECAUSE He was Christ that He could Atone.

True, he was able to forgive the sins prior to the atonement, but here is the next question: Would he have been able to forgive sins prior to the atonement if he never went through with the atonement? In other words, was his ability to forgive sins prior to the atonement based on the fact that God the Father and Jesus knew that the atonement would be accomplished? If it was not based on Christ's atoning sacrifice, I would go back to the original question and ask: What was the atonement for? Why all the suffering? Seems like they could just forgive us after we repented.

[onefour1]

Be careful what you wish for...

My question is, Given that your god had to sacrifice himself and it was necessary, then why the angry accusations of Jews as christ-killers? It seems we should be thanked for moving his plan along.

God has the power to use evil to fulfill his righteous purposes. This does not justify the evil. Pharoah in the days of Moses and Judas Iscariot are other examples of how God has used evil to accomplish his will.

[Cow Poke]

True, he was able to forgive the sins prior to the atonement, but here is the next question: Would he have been able to forgive sins prior to the atonement if he never went through with the atonement?

That's kinda like acknowledging He was sinless, but COULD he have sinned if he WANTED to?

In other words, was his ability to forgive sins prior to the atonement based on the fact that God the Father and Jesus knew that the atonement would be accomplished?

I actually never thought about that --- he was God in the Flesh, here to do the Father's will... but I'm glad He was obedient "even unto death on the cross", because there didn't appear to be a "plan B".

If it was not based on Christ's atoning sacrifice, I would go back to the original question and ask: What was the atonement for? Why all the suffering? Seems like they could just forgive us after we repented.

In the OT, the sins were annually "rolled over" to the next year.... when Jesus became the ultimate sacrifice, the debt was paid in full.

One of my favorite Choruses actually has, IMO, some pretty good theology in it....

He paid a debt He did not owe
I owed a debt I could not pay
I needed someone to wash my sins away
and now I sing a brand new song, Amazing Grace
Christ Jesus paid a debt that I could never pay

[onefour1]

That's kinda like acknowledging He was sinless, but COULD he have sinned if he WANTED to?

God has more free will than man. God continually chooses to do good and always will. He knows that it is the right thing to do.

I actually never thought about that --- he was God in the Flesh, here to do the Father's will... but I'm glad He was obedient "even unto death on the cross", because there didn't appear to be a "plan B".

I too am glad for Jesus' perfect obedience.

In the OT, the sins were annually "rolled over" to the next year.... when Jesus became the ultimate sacrifice, the debt was paid in full.

One of my favorite Choruses actually has, IMO, some pretty good theology in it....

He paid a debt He did not owe
I owed a debt I could not pay
I needed someone to wash my sins away
and now I sing a brand new song, Amazing Grace
Christ Jesus paid a debt that I could never pay

Thanks for that.

[Cow Poke]

God has more free will than man.

Hmmmmm... how so? I mean, God certainly has the MEANS to do more than man, but how is man limited in his free will? Or is that not what you're saying?

God continually chooses to do good and always will. He knows that it is the right thing to do.

We differ, of course, on Christ being God in the flesh, yes? You believe they are two separate persons?

I too am glad for Jesus' perfect obedience.

Living He loved me, dying he saved me, buried he carried my sins far away
Rising he justified, freely for ever, one day He's coming, Oh glorious day!

Thanks for that.

No prob -- and it was FREE!

[onefour1]

Hmmmmm... how so? I mean, God certainly has the MEANS to do more than man, but how is man limited in his free will? Or is that not what you're saying?

Well, I just meant that God is not less than man in his free will, but your question makes me think of the verse that says, "Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free". Certainly God knows more truth than we do. This would make it so he is more free. With all the truth and power he possesses, certainly he is free to do more than we are.

We differ, of course, on Christ being God in the flesh, yes? You believe they are two separate persons?

Right, we believe that Christ is the first born spirit to Father and the first and only begotten son of the Father in the flesh. We believe that he was and is a member of the Godhead under the direction of the Father. We do not believe that they are the same being. We believe that the oneness that Christ shared with the Father is in glory and purpose.

Living He loved me, dying he saved me, buried he carried my sins far away
Rising he justified, freely for ever, one day He's coming, Oh glorious day!

His coming will be a Great and Dreadful day. Great for the righteous and Dreadful for the unrighteous.

No prob -- and it was FREE!

The best things in life are free.

[Cow Poke]

Well, I just meant that God is not less than man in his free will, but your question makes me think of the verse that says, "Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free". Certainly God knows more truth than we do. This would make it so he is more free. With all the truth and power he possesses, certainly he is free to do more than we are.

OK, thanks. But you'd agree that, in the most important area, we have TOTAL freedom to accept or reject Christ, yes? That's pretty eternal. (yeah, I know, you believe we get second chances )

The best things in life are free.

Like Salvation by grace through faith! A FREE Gift!