Apologetics of Astrology, TaroT and I Ching

[Chrs]

You say . ..

Yes. Especially as we've seen that people will be particularly bad at giving clear anecdotal evidence.

So says the Master who has read a few anti-Astrology studies, is an fanatic logical positivist and evidently loves to make grand generalizations with NO good evidence provided

It doesn't take a master, because there is literally no case whatsoever for astrology being true.

Just give me your natal chart information and learn young man. U will get something you do not expect I guarantee it.

Very well.

[AlphaBravo]

As a bonus . . . anyone who gives me their birth date (day, month, year) and their time of birth (its probably on your birth certificate) and your place of birth I . . . . Xru, Lord of the Frigid Highlands, will personally draw you Natal chart.

Ok, I will bite, I just dug out my BC...

Day: 13
Month: December
Year: 1970
Time: 5.57 AM (CST)
Place: Chicago

[Chrs]

Then you will have a basis to dismiss Astrology . . . admittedly a small one.

I have a basis to dismiss astrology. It's barely if at all evidenced.

[Xru]

Ok, I will bite, I just dug out my BC...

Day: 13
Month: December
Year: 1970
Time: 5.57 AM (CST)
Place: Chicago

Thanks . . this will be fun. I gotta order a few things so I hope to get your natal chart to you by the weekend.

[Xru]

I have a basis to dismiss astrology. It's barely if at all evidenced.

[Cybelle Hawke]

May I bring in the star of Bethlehem..... an astronomic event with an astrologic interpretation. How are we to look at it?

[Xru]

May I bring in the star of Bethlehem..... an astronomic event with an astrologic interpretation. How are we to look at it?

Boy Cybelle . . . I'm not sure. Wasn't that a SuperNova.

I think I've seen a chart of the natal Jesus birth date but I don't recall much about it.

Natal charts are about potentials . . . a lot of paths are open but individual choice does make a big difference.

Heres a WikiMonkey of it:

Although magi (Greek μαγοι) is usually translated as "wise men," in this context it probably means "astronomer" or "astrologer".[44] The involvement of astrologers in the story of the birth of Jesus was problematic for the early Church, because they condemned astrology as demonic; a widely cited explanation was that of Tertullian, who suggested that astrology was allowed 'only until the time of the Gospel'.[45]

In 3–2 BC, there was a series of seven conjunctions, including three between Jupiter and Regulus and a strikingly close conjunction between Jupiter and Venus near Regulus on June 17, 2 BC. "The fusion of two planets would have been a rare and awe-inspiring event", according to Roger Sinnott.[46] This event however occurred after the generally accepted date of 4 BC for the death of Herod. Since the conjunction would have been seen in the west at sunset it could not have led the magi south from Jerusalem to Bethlehem.[47] It also does not fit with an event seen at rising that might have started them on the journey.

Astronomer Michael Molnar has proposed a link between a double occultation of Jupiter by the moon in 6 BC in Aries and the Star of Bethlehem, particularly the second occultation on April 17.[48] This event was quite close to the sun and would have been difficult to observe, even with a small telescope,[49] which had not yet been invented.

Occultations of planets by the moon are quite common, but Firmicus Maternus, an astrologer to Roman Emperor Constantine, wrote that an occultation of Jupiter in Aries was a sign of the birth of a divine king.[48][50] "When the royal star of Zeus, the planet Jupiter, was in the east this was the most powerful time to confer kingships. Furthermore, the Sun was in Aries where it is exalted. And the Moon was in very close conjunction with Jupiter in Aries", Molnar wrote.

Does that all make sense to your . . . conjunctions, etc.

[Catholicity]

Moderated By: Catholicity28

Thread moved to a more appropriate area for discussion

***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publically complain or whine, please take it to the Psychotherapy Room unless told otherwise.

[Xru]

Okay .. . I didn't know where it should go and was confident that someone who new anything about anything . . . which was definitely not me . . . would move it.

So thanks.

[Cybelle Hawke]

Boy Cybelle . . . I'm not sure. Wasn't that a SuperNova.

I think I've seen a chart of the natal Jesus birth date but I don't recall much about it.

Natal charts are about potentials . . . a lot of paths are open but individual choice does make a big difference.

Heres a WikiMonkey of it:

Although magi (Greek μαγοι) is usually translated as "wise men," in this context it probably means "astronomer" or "astrologer".[44] The involvement of astrologers in the story of the birth of Jesus was problematic for the early Church, because they condemned astrology as demonic; a widely cited explanation was that of Tertullian, who suggested that astrology was allowed 'only until the time of the Gospel'.[45]

In 3–2 BC, there was a series of seven conjunctions, including three between Jupiter and Regulus and a strikingly close conjunction between Jupiter and Venus near Regulus on June 17, 2 BC. "The fusion of two planets would have been a rare and awe-inspiring event", according to Roger Sinnott.[46] This event however occurred after the generally accepted date of 4 BC for the death of Herod. Since the conjunction would have been seen in the west at sunset it could not have led the magi south from Jerusalem to Bethlehem.[47] It also does not fit with an event seen at rising that might have started them on the journey.

Astronomer Michael Molnar has proposed a link between a double occultation of Jupiter by the moon in 6 BC in Aries and the Star of Bethlehem, particularly the second occultation on April 17.[48] This event was quite close to the sun and would have been difficult to observe, even with a small telescope,[49] which had not yet been invented.

Occultations of planets by the moon are quite common, but Firmicus Maternus, an astrologer to Roman Emperor Constantine, wrote that an occultation of Jupiter in Aries was a sign of the birth of a divine king.[48][50] "When the royal star of Zeus, the planet Jupiter, was in the east this was the most powerful time to confer kingships. Furthermore, the Sun was in Aries where it is exalted. And the Moon was in very close conjunction with Jupiter in Aries", Molnar wrote.

Does that all make sense to your . . . conjunctions, etc.

Yes I have read that Wiki-page as well and I am not contesting its content. My question is about the astronomic event having been given an astrologic interpretation, i.e., a great king being born. This interpretation by the wise of the East was not just a conclusion of their knowledge/analysis, but it led them to travel and search for this King! So we are talking about people to whom the impact of their findings brought them to pack up and seek this King (with nothing else at hand then their findings)

If we accept the Bible as authority, then the story of the "star of Bethlehem" tells us that astrology, and those who perform it, cannot simply be dismissed.

My question is then (as I posted previously): how should we christians look upon this?

Can/may we rely on any truth, interpretation and if so, (I am not saying that we can!) where must we draw the line for not entering into the forbidden/sinful realm of this "science" for which the bible also warns.

I was merely asking for hints, ideas, views and suggestions regarding the above. But now this thread has been moved to another forum/department and I am not sure whether the issue I bring up belongs here.

[Cybelle Hawke]

I have tried several times to edit my post but it did not work so far.

Below a small rectification, just to make sure that my phrasing is not misunderstood.

Please read:
Can/may we rely on any truth, interpretation of astrology and if so, (I am not saying that we can!) where must we draw the line for not entering into the forbidden/sinful realm of this "science" for which the bible also warns.






Also I amen, agree and subscribe to your disclaimer Xru

[Xru]

My question is then (as I posted previously): how should we christians look upon this?

Can/may we rely on any truth, interpretation and if so, (I am not saying that we can!) where must we draw the line for not entering into the forbidden/sinful realm of this "science" for which the bible also warns.

I was merely asking for hints, ideas, views and suggestions regarding the above. But now this thread has been moved to another forum/department and I am not sure whether the issue I bring up belongs here.

I'd suggest taking Astrology a good bit of skepticism Cybelle. Any Astrologist worth listening to would tell you that Natal Charts, ie, birth charts are all "potentials" and that choices that people make is what is important. I've seen natal charts of say Hitler which is rather unremarkable . . . yet he took, according to Astrological principles" his potentials and made about every bad choice he could.

For example, I have mars square (90 degrees) to my Sun at birth. That mean I can be very aggressive, sometime explosive, nasty, mean, and won't put up with anyone copping my space. I had one reading that said I should not be allowed to own guns.

On the other hand my other Astrological character like Libra rising means I value harmony and justice. Though my life experiences I've chosen to moderate my aggressiveness for the harmony of myself and others. I love harmony. See what I mean. i could have gone the other way and with the aggression and the inflexibility that can come with Libra rising.

Jesus' Natal Chart is not known but the conjunction of the planets at that time are rare but not that rare. Astrology that I learned doesn't contradict the divine nature of Jesus at all.

As I wrote in the OP I'm not for using Astrology to guide our lives at all. Criticism of Astrology is rife with the newspaper idea of "today's Astrological forecast." That's not what serious Astrology is about. That's the only point I am making.

I just find it intellectually interesting to look at planetary positions and consider it in relations to a persons personality that I see.

To really know what the Bible teaches about Astrology we'd have to do an exegesis of the texts and understand how people of the time understood Astrology and I have no idea on that.

In contemporary times, I wouldn't look askance at a Christian looking into Astrology out of personal interest . . . no thy enemy . . . right. But to attempt to replace the guidance of our lives by Jesus with Astrology would be a horrible mistake.

Hope that helps. BTW, i found my old Astrology program so if you want to pm my your stats, birth date including year, birth time, and place of birth I'd churn out a natal chart for you if you want . . . it'd be fun. Anyway . . . God bless. You are a nice person!

[Sparko]

So, Xru,

how does Astrology fit in with Christianity? Seems like they are contradictory to each other to me.

And exactly how does Astrology work? How can a planet or star affect a person's life or personality?

[Xru]

So, Xru,

how does Astrology fit in with Christianity? Seems like they are contradictory to each other to me.

And exactly how does Astrology work? How can a planet or star affect a person's life or personality?

Note: having come to know and love Sparko in the approximately 12 months I've been a TWEb member, I suspect that this is a setup by him to get me to commit to certain facts so he can tear me a new one. Call me paranoid . . . call me intrusting . . . call me anything you like . . . caution lest you get a citation by a moderator. However, I know Sparko pretty well and he seems intent on leading me down the Rabbit Hole. Sorry old Buddy. Not going to happen . . . not now . . . not this lifetime . . . never.

1) I don't see any reference on the internet of clear condemnation of Astrology and/or while there may be citations that seem to condemn Astrology there are contercitations that seem to be . .. . eh, its okay. I'm not an expert on scriptures at all so if you have any citations as I'm sure are at your fingertips as I speak, perhaps you could share them.

2) I don't think Astrology as a method of guiding ones life fits in with Christianity at all so we agree there. Let me say . . once again . . . Astrology is not a substitute for following the teachings of Jesus . . .

3) How does it affect personality or work or how can it affect a person's life or personality? I've never read an account or a reasonable account about how the positions of celestial bodies can affect human personality. I read some "speculation" about gravity and the like that are totally unconvincing . ..

Lest we go too far down this rabbit hole Sparko . . . in case you didn't notice I've explicitly denied a conviction in the accuracy of Astrology.

My reason for starting this OP is that IMHO as someone who has played with Astrology is that everyone I've queried here on TWeb who condemn Astrology do it for the completely wrong reasons. See above for my short conversation with Chris.

Chrs was trying to use a study on Cognitive Bias to claim it proved Astrology is wrong. I claim that the study is about Cognitive Bias not whether Astrology is correct or not. Chrs and I have agreed to come up with some kind of "study" of TWeb volunteers to run through my Astrology program that determines Natal Charts and then "test" them somehow for accuracy.

If you'd like to volunteer to be a victim . .. . ah, I men a subject of that test that would be great. So far we have three victim's . . . oh, ha ha. Silly me . . . those Freudian slips are gonna kill me someday. You could be the four victi . . . . oh, crap . . . subject!:)))))

PS in the how does Astrology work question I assume you are not asking about the mechanics of conjuct, trine, square, opposition of bodies, sun sign, rising sign ect. That is available to a search by Google which I'd just cut and past.

[Sparko]

1) I don't see any reference on the internet of clear condemnation of Astrology and/or while there may be citations that seem to condemn Astrology there are contercitations that seem to be . .. . eh, its okay. I'm not an expert on scriptures at all so if you have any citations as I'm sure are at your fingertips as I speak, perhaps you could share them.

2) I don't think Astrology as a method of guiding ones life fits in with Christianity at all so we agree there.

that's kinda what I was meaning. Christianity says that God is large and in charge. Astrology says that planets and stars are in charge. The bible is pretty harsh with any sort of "soothsaying" like astrology.


Isaiah 47:13-14 : All the counsel you have received has only worn you out! Let your astrologers come forward, those stargazers who make predictions month by month, let them save you from what is coming upon you. Surely they are like stubble; the fire will burn them up. They cannot even save themselves from the power of the flame. Here are no coals to warm anyone; here is no fire to sit by.