The RCC does NOT have the divine rights it claims to have.

[One Bad Pig]

All the posters do is attack, attack, attack against the LDS; they Judge us, and tell us we are damned for all eternity.

I attack Mormonism for the damnable lie it is. I've never told you you're damned for all eternity. IMO it's likely, but I'm not the Judge.

We are not allowed to post on the "Christian" forums.

This is a privately run site. We don't have to allow you to post anywhere. The posting restrictions are in place so that in those forums, foundational doctrines don't get re-hashed while we're trying to talk about something else.

Additionally, they deny claims that make any part of Christendom guilty of any major sins.

I'm having trouble parsing this.

They choose to accept the re-written and un-true history of the church as they continue to disparage the LDS.

This is a bit of a broad brush. If all orthodox Christians accepted this hypothetical "re-written and un-true history", where would you get the "real" history? And this is rich coming from someone who accepts a "history" fabricated from whole cloth.

Therefore, I am revealing the lies and the outrageous sins of orthodox Christianity. Unfortunately, since the RCC is the major player (at least according to them) since Jesus established His church, it is the RCC that gets most of the attention in seeking the true history of the church. As I continue to go through the history of the church, the Protestants aren't going to get any glowing reports either. Both the Catholic and the other Christian denominations represented on this site claim that they are all happy and part of the body of Christ. Yet today's Pope has come out in recent years to claim that the Protestants are NOT saved. So, who is kidding who? More importantly, neither have the Divine Authority to judge who is saved.

I will also offer that at the time of the Reformation, the Protestants were not considered Christian. They suffered persecution at the hands of the RCC. Today, the Protestants are calling the LDS not Christian, just like they were considered not Christian not so long ago.

Love,

jo

I would offer that you have a poor grasp on what orthodox Christians claim and the history of Protestant-Catholic relations.

[franktalk]

I have noticed that not one person has addressed the data that Jo has laid out in her op. It is not surprising at all. All of the orthodox have learned this lesson from the leaders of the church. Just attack the person who brings up inconvenient facts and side step. Then when no one is looking rewrite history to remove any thing we don't want the unclean masses to know. This has been going on in all organizations of man since the beginning. The RCC just brought it to a new level by taking a true Gospel "present truth" and twisting it into an abomination that needed to be restored. And who helped with that restoring of the present truth? Why it is right there in scripture. And the irony is huge.

[JB]

Probably would help if Jo's data were, well, defensibly accurate. Or handled responsibly. Or if she'd listen to the points raised against her mishandling of her inaccurate data. Any of those might help, really. But the two of you are too obsessed with your anti-Christian agenda and your easily falsified pretenses to sound spiritual discernment.

[Catholicity]

I have noticed that not one person has addressed the data that Jo has laid out in her op. It is not surprising at all. All of the orthodox have learned this lesson from the leaders of the church. Just attack the person who brings up inconvenient facts and side step. Then when no one is looking rewrite history to remove any thing we don't want the unclean masses to know. This has been going on in all organizations of man since the beginning. The RCC just brought it to a new level by taking a true Gospel "present truth" and twisting it into an abomination that needed to be restored. And who helped with that restoring of the present truth? Why it is right there in scripture. And the irony is huge.

Really? We haven't? Have you read this thread?

[jo7241974]

I don't know jo. I don't know all that many Christians well . . . do any of us know others well? People are not inclined to talk about such things, in my experience.

Hi Xru:

This is why I pointed only at the posters who have talked about such things. They wear blinders when discussing their own institutions of religion. The arguments they use against the LDS do not pass the stink test when held up against their own church.

Maybe I'm a lot different that many Christians here on TWeb . . . I've know for a long time about he duplicity and horrible dishonesty in the RCC. I've always been suspicious ot administration of any denomination, Protestant, RCC or ORC. They can do some pretty bad stuff. And so have Protestants when there were great wars in Europe between Protestants and Protestants, Protestants and RC, and Protestant/RCC vs Protestants.

Some of that greed and outright lying still persists in the RCC as far as I can tell, but they have done a great deal to clean up their act as have the Protestant. I can only believe that LDS are trying to clean up their act too. Everyone has skeletons in the closet as they say.

I am glad to meet a poster who can see and has not chosen to put blinders on!

Then there are posts about how what 50 million were executed for heresy in the middle-ages. That's absolute BS. Was the Inquisition horrible? Absolutely, but to claim 50 million is stupid. It just undermines the case against the Inquisition.

If you are referring to the thread I think you are, the number presented in the video was actually between 10 million and 50 million. Yes, there is a great difference between 50,000 or 10 and 50 million; which is why we continue to research and find more information. Unfortunately, after a rush of books were printed in the 1800's revealed more information about the corruption and other data the RCC did not want made public, they tried to confiscate as many of the records as they could find. Inasmuch as this has been a tactic used since early on in the church Jesus established, so many records have been destroyed at various times, it is almost impossible to determine the truth in the history of the church, and even true orthodox beliefs; which is most likely why there is such confusion in Christendom as to what is identified as orthodox.

There is plenty of dirt to kick around about Protestants, LDS, and RCC without conflating the charges and to make all three look really really bad. So why make exaggerated claims that virtually no one other than extremists would defend. Not smart.

Since it is just as easy to find and cite writings which support a person's pov, as it is to find writings which support an opposite view, I would offer that it is very difficult to identify what may or may not be exaggerated claims.

Is it bad enough to claim that 50,000 were killed during the Inquisition? Yes. Does 50,000,000 make it any worse? No. Because even one life lost to the Inquisition would be too much.

This supports why, when I look at the history of the RCC, I point to the two great commandments given in the Bible. I also point out that Jesus never taught us to kill anyone. We have also been taught that if we claim to love God, but hate our brother; then we are liars. IOW, someone who hates another CANNOT love God; even though they claim to love Him. It is the leaders of the RCC who have manifested great hatred toward others. The members of the RCC are not responsible for the decisions and choices of their leaders. Now, seeing as how the leaders are the ones who claim to love God, but actually are liars about their love for Him, they are the ones who have become apostate - by turning their backs on God. It is not my desire to ruin anyone's faith in God. My desire is to reveal the truth about the institutes of religion who claim to love God, but do not. I believe there have been some Popes (though this role/title is NOT orthodox), who DID truly love God because they also loved their brothers. However, the RCC simply cannot claim their Popes enjoyed the Divine Right of an unbroken succession of infallible Popes since Peter BECAUSE of the corrupt Popes who are part of that succession. With more information, I hope that members of apostate institutes of religion will turn to God and devote their attention to their own personal relationship with God, rather than with their apostate church. There was an absolute necessity to Restore the Gospel and what Peter himself referred to as the "present truth", because mankind had so corrupted it, that the "present truth" was no longer identifiable.

Just as Paul lamented about the blindness of his Jewish brethren because, in their blindness, they could not receive a fulness of joy; I lament about my brothers and sisters who are blinded by false teachings. They also cannot receive a fulness of joy unless they have eyes that can see, and ears that can hear the Truth which is revealed by the Holy Ghost when Father deems they are ready. When they remain fixed in their blindness and limit what they will allow themselves to believe (as dictated by their belief system), they are unable to progress and have more of the Truth revealed to them. Thus, the joy they are able to experience is also limited. Fortunately, there are many Christians who understand this, and are able to discern the Holy Ghost; and are able to receive more Truth regardless of the religious institute they belong to.

I will repeat what I have said many times. A member of an apostate religious institute is not an apostate himself. It is the leaders who turned from God who are individually apostate; and, they are the ones who made their religion apostate. They do not have the power to also make church members apostate. We are all blind to whatever part of ALL Truth has not yet been revealed to us. If we are blind to the fact that a church leader is apostate, or that an institute of religion is apostate, we are not held accountable for our blindness. Our personal righteousness is counted in accordance with our faithfulness to what we believe is true; regardless of whether what we believe is true or not. It is the intent of our heart which God looks at. How magnificent and perfect is His love, as is the love of our Savior, Jesus Christ!!!

Is it possible and probable that some history of the Christian church has been revised . . . I haven't read a lot about that. But I sure wouldn't be surprised if it had happened . just like the leaders of LDS are trying to put spin on the history of the LDS, and just like the RCC and Protestant administrators would try and do if they got their pantyhose in a bind. Pencil-necks and paper-pushers DO this kind of stuff. It's called politics.

I agree that it is mankind's nature to put a "spin" on history. With all due respect, when reviewing the history of the RCC or the Protestant denominations of hate and killing, the history of the LDS pales in comparison. Also, I would offer that the "spin" you claim the LDS leaders are putting on their history is actually an effort to explain our beliefs in a such a way as to correct the misinterpretations of our beliefs which the anti's have used in their efforts to disparage the LDS during the entire history of the LDS Church. This is not an easy task. In fact this same pattern can be seen in the ancient church as anti-Christians have tried to distort the teachings and legitimacy of Christianity since the very beginning.

The questions that concerns me is does any of that crap have anything to do with my salvation or the salvation of my Brothers and Sisters in Christ. Probably not. I think, I hope that the essential messages of the Bible have been left alone by the disingenuous so we can study the word and try and live out our lives following the path.

Your salvation depends upon you and your personal relationship with God. It has nothing to do with any institute of religion. No religion can save you. Likewise, no religion can judge you as saved or not. Therefore, anyone who tells me that I am not saved because they do not consider me Christian, has usurped the Power and Authority which belongs to Christ alone. It is the sacrifice of our beloved Savior, Jesus Christ, who provides the way, and who is our just and righteous and perfect Judge.

Love,

jo

[jo7241974]

We ask questions and tell the Truth.

Hi CP,

I respectfully disagree.

drama

Actually, it is Judgment.

You're on a roll! Lemme help....

They have refused us assent to their Campus Decorum, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

They have forbidden their moderators to pass laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till their assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, they have utterly neglected to attend to them.

They have refused to pass other laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of representation in the legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to Antis only.

They have called together groups of moderators in hidden places, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing the Mormons into compliance with their moderation.

They have dissolved representative houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness their invasions on the rights of the Mormons.....

Now that's drama!!

Jo, you are as much a Church Historian as I am a 70 lb. Ballerina.

I didn't know you had lost weight. Is that healthy for a Ballerina to weigh so little?

Fortunately, my Salvation rests in the hands of Jesus.

Fortunately, this is true for ALL of us!!! Amen and Amen!!!

Neither does Joseph Smith or the Mormon Church.

Fortunately, they don't judge who is saved or not. Our hope is that ALL are saved; perchance even to achieve Exaltation. That's why we do the ordinance work for EVERYONE; we don't pick and choose who we think will make it.

Jo, How does ANY of this attack on Christianity make Smith any less a liar and false prophet, and the Mormon Church any less convoluted?

Meh...I knew you'd get your agenda in. I am formally asking that you do not post any further comments about Joseph Smith or the Mormon/LDS Church on this thread. That is the reason I did not place my thread on the LDS Forum.

Bless your heart.

God bless you, CP.

Love,

jo

[jo7241974]

From the author's introduction:

We need only divest the Papacy of the glory it has usurped, that the Church Catholic may at once appear in her majestic perpetuity, in her universality. The Papacy has narrowed it to the point of presuming to comprehend the whole Church in itself. Tear away these glittering pretensions, and the Christian society will appear marching with unbroken progress through ages, preserving inviolate the deposit of revelation, protesting against every error, whether emanating from Rome or elsewhere; accepting as her rule only the catholic rule founded upon the Word of God, of which the Councils and the Fathers are the organs.
In this holy society there are neither Greeks nor Barbarians, but Christians only, who can say with St. Pacian, "Christian is my name; Catholic my surname," because they believe without exception in all fullness (Kath ólon) the doctrine taught by the Master and preserved intact by the Church in all ages and in all places. This great truth is concisely expressed by the well-known words of Vincent of Lerins:
“Quod ubique, quod semper, quod ab omnibus."
The Pope would, in his own interest, limit the Church to such as acknowledge his sovereignty, that he might then absorb them and say, "I am the Church." Let us break down the barriers he has raised, and we shall at once see the Church in all her beauty, expanding in freedom, unshackled by territorial boundaries, owning as its members all particular churches, bound together by the same faith, communing with one another through pastors alike apostolic, made one in Jesus Christ, the great Pontiff, the sole Head of the Church, and in the Holy Spirit its guide.

Hi OBP,

Yes, the author remained a member of the RCC even after uncovering the corruption.

It makes little sense for you to rail against one subset of orthodox Christianity when you think all of orthodox Christianity is corrupt.

This thread is basically dedicated to the RCC because they are one of the oldest Christian religions. I will have other threads for other denominations. My railing is to show the corruption which places into question what is actually orthodox. So far, even early orthodox beliefs have been all over the place. IOW, from the very beginning, man was arguing about what was "orthodox". Since what is supposed to be "orthodox" is a moving target, how can anyone be certain about what actually IS orthodox? Therefore, I am pointing out the corruption held within the various denominations in order to show the weakness of using orthodox belief as a foundation in arguments. Ultimately, it is the Holy Ghost who leads us to all Truth inspite of what people believe was orthodox. It does not surprise me, therefore, that the RCC claims it is only the Pope who can receive Divine Revelation, and that whenever anyone other than the Pope receives revelation which places doubt upon a Pope's Revelation, the Pope's Revelation holds supremacy. This basically teaches members of the RCC that the Holy Ghost cannot be trusted to reveal Truth to them personally. Sorry, but this is NOT what Jesus taught.

Also, you're quoting from The Papacy, not History of the Church in France - which is the book mentioned in the introduction as having been censured.

Dang it! I hate when I do something like that. The author talked so much about his book the History of the Church in France, that I screwed up the name of the book. Indeed, it was The Papacy which I had read and was quoting from, which has been censured.

Love,

jo

[jo7241974]

When you make comments like "they" that is over-inclusive and diminishes your arguments. Always be, or try to be specific. Like "All the posters do is attack, attack, attack against the LDS . . " and change it to something like "It seem to me that many, IMO, posters, a lot of posts are attack after attack after attack." When you make all inclusive statements like the above it is a real turn-off for the reader.

Hi Xru,

You are correct; and usually I do include words which show that not all posters are included in my comments.

BTW, I have never said that I think any LDS is damned for eternity . . . so you are wrong there. Consider the exceptions to your statements and speak to them. They are always there.

Cool. So you think I am saved?

Stop whining . . . of course you are not allowed to post on Christian forums . . . this is a Christian forum, and is Christian owned. LDS see Christians and apostate. What the heck do you expect, jo.

Hopefully, by now you have had a chance to read my comments wherein the LDS do NOT see Christians as apostate. It is the institutes of religion and those leaders who taught corrupt teachings who are apostate. This does not make members of those religions apostate, as they would personally have to turn away from God to become apostate. They are not held accountable for the actions of another. Nor are they held accountable for believing in false teachings. This is yet another misinterpretation of LDS beliefs; which, even though websites like Tweb have been corrected, choose to believe otherwise. So, indeed, what the heck, Xru?? Even YOU drank the koolaid.

I don't accept the re-written and un-true history of the Christian church but for evidence you are going to come up with some rather compelling documentation and rightfully so. I get the same thing when I talk ToE in NS301 . . . and that's understandable. If you want to change someones opinion be smart about it jo . . . talk their language!!!!

The RCC officially does consider Protestants apostate . . right. So . .. I'm not kidding myself about the conflicts between RCC and Protestants. I don't acknowledge Romes authority over all Christendom. It's BS. But that doesn't stop me from loving my Brothers and Sisters in Christ in the RCC.

Good for you! It doesn't stop me from loving my brothers and sisters no matter what their religious affiliation, nor whether they believe in God or not.

Once again stop whining . . . the LDS consider the Protestants as apostate too. This is political BS. Do you believe that Jesus is your savior and all that stuff. Of course you do. Let the idiot administrators of the different Christian groups fight it out and pay attention to you own salvation is my suggestion.

Again, my purpose is to reveal corruption, hate, murder...all which are corruptions of the Gospel. It has resulted in an Apostasy from the church Jesus established, which many of the anti-LDS posters deny has taken place. By accepting and believing in false teachings, believers are limiting themselves to the amount of Truth which can be revealed to them by the Holy Ghost. Thus, their joy is also limited. My desire is that they be able to have more joy right now in their mortal existance.

I'm still open to the "possibility" that Smith was a prophet. I think that would be cool. But from what I can gather he was not. Does that change how I think about you and your devotion to Jesus and God. NO.

I think it is great you are so open-minded. Would it surprise you for me to say that I don't think you must be a member of the LDS Church in order to have a fulness of joy while in this estate? I believe God uses people all over the earth to accomplish His purposes. I believe He used Ghandi; and he wasn't even a Christian. What I think IS necessary to receive a fulness of joy while you are mortal is to be able to discern and understand the Holy Ghost, because He is the ONLY one who can reveal spiritual Truth to your spirit here on earth. I do believe that the LDS Church is God's current vehicle on the earth who holds the keys to the Kingdom of God with the Power and Authority of the Holy Priesthood to bind and loose, and to perform the ordinances God requires of us. If you were to join the Church, you would be able to personally participate in these ordinances insofar as you are worthy to do so. But this is getting way off base of the OP.

As far as I can see you are very frustrated and angry at your position not being tolerated hear. So that's life. What do you think you are going to have happen hear? Is it fair? Maybe not. But, jo, as you know LIFE IS NOT FAIR.

Well, I am frustrated by the hypocrisy and am finally doing what Jesus did when He came across it; rather than only defending my beliefs. Life is filled with trials which we are to learn from. Amazingly, by dealing with the anti's, I have been given the opportunity to learn a great deal more Truth, as I have sincerely sought it in defense of my beliefs. IOW, it has been a blessing in my life. Now, I have changed my approach in my posts because I want to plant seeds for others to also learn from, perchance they should take root. I have also been able to reach a point where more often than not, I am able to see beyond the words used against me; and, instead, see the spirit inside the tabernacle of flesh. However, I surely am far, far from perfect.

Love,

jo

[jo7241974]

I attack Mormonism for the damnable lie it is. I've never told you you're damned for all eternity. IMO it's likely, but I'm not the Judge.

Hi OBP,

Gosh, should I thank you here? Or maybe not; since you think it is likely that I am damned for all eternity.

This is a bit of a broad brush. If all orthodox Christians accepted this hypothetical "re-written and un-true history", where would you get the "real" history? And this is rich coming from someone who accepts a "history" fabricated from whole cloth.
I would offer that you have a poor grasp on what orthodox Christians claim and the history of Protestant-Catholic relations.

So, does this mean you aren't going to actually address the issues in my OP which I found recorded in The Papacy?

Love,

jo

[jo7241974]

Probably would help if Jo's data were, well, defensibly accurate. Or handled responsibly. Or if she'd listen to the points raised against her mishandling of her inaccurate data. Any of those might help, really. But the two of you are too obsessed with your anti-Christian agenda and your easily falsified pretenses to sound spiritual discernment.

Hi JB,

Since my data came from a Priest in the RCC, I would think you would want to discuss them, rather than side-stepping them as Frank has pointed out. By avoiding the issues documented in this book, and the points I made in response to them, your credibility becomes questionable. After all, I am not the author of the book. I think my points were reasonable based upon what I found written.

Love,

jo

[jo7241974]

Really? We haven't? Have you read this thread?

Hi Cath,

Please show me where the actual issues have been addressed, rather than the "issue" being turned around to me instead of the points made in my OP. With all due respect, you are a relatively new convert to the RCC. I would think that either you or the learned JB would be able to make some comments about those points. Someone saying "they have been taken care of" is not addressing the points made; nor does it magically erase the corruption. By JB saying that the data is inaccurate does not make the data inaccurate. It merely means that JB thinks the data is inaccurate without giving me any reasons or support for why he thinks that way.

Love,

jo

[Cow Poke]

Hi CP,

I respectfully disagree.

SURPRISE!!!!

Actually, it is Judgment.

Actually, it's fruit inspection.

Now that's drama!!

Good eye!

I didn't know you had lost weight. Is that healthy for a Ballerina to weigh so little?

Classic example of changing the facts to fit your worldview. I'm North of 200 lb, but shrinking slowly.

Fortunately, this is true for ALL of us!!! Amen and Amen!!!

Well, a LOT of us don't have to bow before Joseph Smith - we can trust fully in Jesus!

Fortunately, they don't judge who is saved or not. Our hope is that ALL are saved; perchance even to achieve Exaltation. That's why we do the ordinance work for EVERYONE; we don't pick and choose who we think will make it.

Your universalism is noted.

Meh...I knew you'd get your agenda in.

Is it also "agenda" when you attack Catholicism? Or do you call that something else.

I am formally asking that you do not post any further comments about Joseph Smith or the Mormon/LDS Church on this thread.

I think you should have outlined that in the OP, Jo. Your whole case is that your attack on the Catholic Church demonstrates the "hypocrisy" of us questioning Mormondom, so ... I believe it's germane.

That is the reason I did not place my thread on the LDS Forum.

But, Jo, Mormonsim IS unorthodox theology!

God bless you, CP.

Love,

jo

You too, Jo.

[Cow Poke]

I have noticed that not one person has addressed the data that Jo has laid out in her op. It is not surprising at all. All of the orthodox have learned this lesson from the leaders of the church. Just attack the person who brings up inconvenient facts and side step. Then when no one is looking rewrite history to remove any thing we don't want the unclean masses to know.

Ah, kinda like the Reconstruction of Mormon Doctrine?

This has been going on in all organizations of man since the beginning. The RCC just brought it to a new level by taking a true Gospel "present truth" and twisting it into an abomination that needed to be restored. And who helped with that restoring of the present truth? Why it is right there in scripture. And the irony is huge.

Bless your heart

[David Hayward]

Judging by this webpage, there are similarities between the role of Prophet and Pope: both claim to hold the keys of the kingdom; both claim a similar authority and teaching authority.

LDS.org

The following story shows how the proper use of priesthood keys keeps order in the Church:

In the early days of the Church, Hiram Page assumed he had the authority to reveal the word of the Lord to the Church. He began telling others about his revelations, and many members of the Church believed everything he taught. The Prophet Joseph Smith prayed and asked the Lord what to do. The Lord answered him, saying, “No one shall be appointed to receive commandments and revelations in this church excepting my servant Joseph Smith, Jun.” (D&C 28:2). The Lord also said that Joseph should tell Hiram Page that the things Hiram had been teaching and writing were from the devil. The Lord explained that Hiram was not the one to receive revelations for the Church: “These things have not been appointed unto him. … For all things must be done in order” (see D&C 28:11–13).

© source where applicable

David

[Hamster]

What did the gospel look like before the Catholic Church allegedly twisted it and what did it look like after?