Ann Romney: Housewife extraordinaire....

[nickcopernicus]

This thread and the comments I've seen thus far, appears to be mostly an attack on success. Jealousy that someone has been successful. More successful than themselves. If you want to see America follow the path of proven failures of Socialism in every situation it has every been tried, then vote for Obama.

Nick:
Well, since your comments were general, I won't take what you say personally, as the shoe doesn't fit for me. AFAICT, I'm more successful than Lady Romney. I grew up poor and did not sleep my way up the social ladder. I haven't made it to the 1%, but that's okay. I'm quite comfortable being in the top 10%. That's good enough for me.

Now, I want you to back up your assertion about the proven failures of Socialism by comparing the American Society to that of Denmark.

Let me know who has lower crime rates (it's hard to live in a society if you aren't 'alive')
Let me know who has more gender equality (Or is it OKAY that women do the same job as men, but get paid less?)
Let me know who has lower infant mortality.
Let me know who a higher literacy rate.
Let me know who has a lower poverty rate.
Let me know who has a better healthcare system. By that I mean, who spends more per capita and what is the general state of health of both nations.
Let me know who has a lower abortion rate. Or teen pregnancy for that matter.

Most of my requests were rhetorical. Unless you dispute that Denmark has better ‘marks’ than America in those regards. Of course, America isn’t all doom and gloom either. We have the most powerful and advanced military in the history of our species. So if all else failed, we could destroy all other societies, which would make us the best. I was able to better myself even though I grew up in a rough neighborhood. Let me suggest you abandon the talking points that have obviously been spoon-fed to you. Find some substance. How many 'socialist' societies have you visited? Indeed, how much traveling have you done?

Cheers,

Nick

[lilpixieofterror]

Well, since your comments were general, I won't take what you say personally, as the shoe doesn't fit for me. AFAICT, I'm more successful than Lady Romney. I grew up poor and did not sleep my way up the social ladder. I haven't made it to the 1%, but that's okay. I'm quite comfortable being in the top 10%. That's good enough for me.

More hate upon a women you don't even know nice. So you just believe she 'slept her way up' Yet you think it is others that 'hate women'. At least I do not accuse the wife of a person I don't even know of 'sleeping her way up' because sorry dear heart, she didn't. Mitt Romney earned his money and they were married before he did so. That assertion is out the window.

Now, I want you to back up your assertion about the proven failures of Socialism by comparing the American Society to that of Denmark.

Let me know who has lower crime rates (it's hard to live in a society if you aren't 'alive')
Let me know who has more gender equality (Or is it OKAY that women do the same job as men, but get paid less?)
Let me know who has lower infant mortality.
Let me know who a higher literacy rate.
Let me know who has a lower poverty rate.
Let me know who has a better healthcare system. By that I mean, who spends more per capita and what is the general state of health of both nations.
Let me know who has a lower abortion rate. Or teen pregnancy for that matter.

Yawn, standard canards that all have answers:

- Denmark is a smaller country then the US dear. It has a smaller population and a less diverse one then the US. Many people seem to forget that Europe, when compaired to the US, has far less of a diverse culture and ethnicity then the US has.
- The US reports it's birth rates and deaths more honestly then other Western countries do so our numbers are higher.
- I still have not seen any hard numbers or evidence that prove the assertion that women make less just cause they are women. I find most women make less simply cause of how they choose to work. Most of my non-military girls friends simply do not work jobs that are in the higher pay range cause they just want extra money or something to do.
- What is poverty really like? Do most families here in the US known how it is to be richest man in your village cause you got a tin roof?
- For health care, the US has a large population then these countries do. How about we break the US up by state and see what we get?
- Finally, let us not forget that Western Europe is dependent on US protection. The largest military of Western Europe would be the UK and their total military forces sit at 410,180 from what I can find to include active and reserve. The US sits at 2,916,754. Russia is the only European country that has the US beat in numbers of troops and that only is because they have more military reserve numbers. Our active military beats Russia by over 400,000 troops. Perhaps we should pull out and let Europe defend itself and let us see how fast their countries fall apart. It is pretty easy to give your citizens more social care, when you don't have to worry about defending them from aggressive nations and let somebody else flip the bill for you instead.

You are also forgetting I've been to Europe, I know they have problems too. I remember specifically seeing homeless in Europe too and the Euro has lost a lot of value in the past year. It is down from 1.80 dollars per euro in early 2011 to 1.41 euros per dollar in early 2012. That is a 20% drop off, in one year.

Most of my requests were rhetorical. Unless you dispute that Denmark has better ‘marks’ than America in those regards. Of course, America isn’t all doom and gloom either. We have the most powerful and advanced military in the history of our species. So if all else failed, we could destroy all other societies, which would make us the best. I was able to better myself even though I grew up in a rough neighborhood. Let me suggest you abandon the talking points that have obviously been spoon-fed to you. Find some substance. How many 'socialist' societies have you visited? Indeed, how much traveling have you done?

Western Europe depends on the US military for protection or did you forget that the European Union saw NATO as adequate for it's defense needs and didn't bother with a military defense clause? Last I checked, most of NATO's forces were US forces. Isn't it lovely that Europe is getting the benefits of our military protection without any of the cost that goes with it and in many cases, charges us to allow our military into their countries? Anyway, I can't speak for OC, but I've been to 11 countries, 5 were European and one I've spent several months in.

[nickcopernicus]

Crystal,
Before I begin, let me honestly say that you presented a well argued post. You bring up some valid points. I don’t agree with everything, of course. So let’ talk about it shall we?

More hate upon a women you don't even know nice. So you just believe she 'slept her way up' Yet you think it is others that 'hate women'. At least I do not accuse the wife of a person I don't even know of 'sleeping her way up' because sorry dear heart, she didn't. Mitt Romney earned his money and they were married before he did so. That assertion is out the window.

Nick:
….So, Mr. Romney grew up poor? Lady Romney married a pauper and they went into business together, and then worked their way up the social ladder? Don’t make me laugh. Sure, he gave away his inheritance. But I wonder was that before or after he became a successful businessman? You are correct. I don’t know her. I don’t know her motivation for marrying a former Governor’s son with a trust fund either. The fact remains that I earned more of my wealth than she did. I made money working my way up to the top. And tell me Crystal, how exactly did Lady Romney become rich?

LPOT:
Yawn, standard canards that all have answers:

Nick:
Of course they do. But I notice you don’t directly answer any of them. They certainly weren’t loaded questions.

LPOT:
- Denmark is a smaller country then the US dear. It has a smaller population and a less diverse one then the US. Many people seem to forget that Europe, when compaired to the US, has far less of a diverse culture and ethnicity then the US has.

Nick:
Yes, but the counter-argument is that some say it was the diversity that was a result of the era of immigration that gave the US its strength. That the US is neither culturally nor genetically homogenous means the US is more able to adapt and innovate. Multiculturalism is an overall strength, not a weakness.

Now it’s also true that the US has a much larger population than that of Demnark, or other Skandonavian Countries. To me, what this means that there is no universal economic model that works for all societies. In other words, AFAICT, socialism works very well for small, homogenous societies (or at least it does for some of them. It hasn’t worked too well for Greece as of late).

Conservatives should qualify their rants against socialism. Instead of crap like ‘Red under the bed’ Commie scare techniques used against Obama, conservatives should point out that either socialism doesn’t work for the US, or that it doesn’t work for large societies.

LPOT:
- The US reports it's birth rates and deaths more honestly then other Western countries do so our numbers are higher.

Nick:
Unless you can uncover evidence of number smudging amongst Western European countries like Denmark, how am I supposed to take this other than an Ad Hom? If they’re smudging the data and have been caught doing it, it should not be too hard to find evidence from a reputable source (BBC, National Geographic, World Health Org, United Nations, Congressional reports, Bloomberg). That list isn’t exhaustive, just don’t link me to the conservative version of the Huffington Post.

LPOT:
- I still have not seen any hard numbers or evidence that prove the assertion that women make less just cause they are women. I find most women make less simply cause of how they choose to work. Most of my non-military girls friends simply do not work jobs that are in the higher pay range cause they just want extra money or something to do.

Nick:
Well, you can take from this report from the LabourBureau. But it appears that Men make more than women in pretty much every job category, no matter what race or social class.

LPOT:
- What is poverty really like? Do most families here in the US known how it is to be richest man in your village cause you got a tin roof?

Nick:
I don’t think there is any hard line on what constitutes ‘poverty.’ It’s all relative. I’m poor compared to Lady Romney, but Rich compared to the average Afghani family. Either way, Do you agree or disagree that Denmark has a lower poverty rate?

LPOT:
- For health care, the US has a large population then these countries do. How about we break the US up by state and see what we get?

Nick:
Nah, since we’re talking about Federal Healthcare policies, why don’t we compare country to country? Even better, perhaps there’s information about the European Union as a whole? I’ll do some looking and see what I can find. For now, I think Denmark has us beat here.

LPOT:
- Finally, let us not forget that Western Europe is dependent on US protection. The largest military of Western Europe would be the UK and their total military forces sit at 410,180 from what I can find to include active and reserve. The US sits at 2,916,754. Russia is the only European country that has the US beat in numbers of troops and that only is because they have more military reserve numbers. Our active military beats Russia by over 400,000 troops. Perhaps we should pull out and let Europe defend itself and let us see how fast their countries fall apart. It is pretty easy to give your citizens more social care, when you don't have to worry about defending them from aggressive nations and let somebody else flip the bill for you instead.

Nick:
Here, we agree 100%. I think it’s tragic that the US bears the cost of being the world police; or rather, we’re the shield against the east. Now some Europeans I know get all huffy when I point this out to them, but the fact remains that it’s much easier to spend money on your own populace when you don’ t have to fund something as expensive as an advanced, massive, powerful military. So I would say this point mitigates, but does not entirely excuse, the societal advantages that some Western European countries enjoy compared to the US.

LPOT:
You are also forgetting I've been to Europe, I know they have problems too. I remember specifically seeing homeless in Europe too and the Euro has lost a lot of value in the past year. It is down from 1.80 dollars per euro in early 2011 to 1.41 euros per dollar in early 2012. That is a 20% drop off, in one year.

Nick:
Yes Crystal, I know you’ve been to Europe. Your numbers are a little off, though. In January of 2011, one dollar bought €0.75 Now it buys €0.76. That’s a change of 1.3%. Your point is well taken, however. The Eurozone has indeed had its share of problems. But Denmark isn’t in the Eurozone now is it? And for good reason, apparently.

LPOT:
Western Europe depends on the US military for protection or did you forget that the European Union saw NATO as adequate for it's defense needs and didn't bother with a military defense clause? Last I checked, most of NATO's forces were US forces. Isn't it lovely that Europe is getting the benefits of our military protection without any of the cost that goes with it and in many cases, charges us to allow our military into their countries? Anyway, I can't speak for OC, but I've been to 11 countries, 5 were European and one I've spent several months in.

Nick:
Yes, I know you’re as well travelled, or perhaps even more than me. For myself, I’ve been to Japan, South Korea, United Kingdom, Germany, Austria, Italy, Switzerland, the Netherlands, Denmark, Kuwait, United Arabs Emirates, Iraq, Afghanistan, Kyrgyzstan, Jordan, & Mexico (). Most of my time overseas has been in the Middle East.

Do we at least agree that socialism seems to be working fine for Demark?…with the caveat that it was working well for Iceland until 2008 as well.

Cheers,

Nick

[OtherCheek]

Nick:
I'm quite comfortable being in the top 10%. That's good enough for me.

Well, it SHOULD be good enough. Kudos to you.

Now, I want you to back up your assertion about the proven failures of Socialism by comparing the American Society to that of Denmark.

Let me know who has lower crime rates (it's hard to live in a society if you aren't 'alive')
Let me know who has more gender equality (Or is it OKAY that women do the same job as men, but get paid less?)
Let me know who has lower infant mortality.
Let me know who a higher literacy rate.
Let me know who has a lower poverty rate.
Let me know who has a better healthcare system. By that I mean, who spends more per capita and what is the general state of health of both nations.
Let me know who has a lower abortion rate. Or teen pregnancy for that matter.

Anyway, in some statistics Denmark is better, and in some the US is better.
I wonder who has fewer lawyers (ambulance chasers) per capita. Do you have any statistics on that?
I wonder who defends Denmark from aggressor nations like Russia or China? It's hard to have a national identity if you are undefended from aggressors.
When Denmark's GDP (per capita), is so much lower than ours, everyone gets paid less. You can have complete gender equality, and still be a failure economically.
And the public corruption index ranks Denmark as NUMBER 1 throughout the world. US is #20. So, picking Denmark as a comparison wasn't very helpful to your argument, IMO.
Finally, since America has become pretty much a socialist state where lawyers and judges and big government rules, corporate tax rates are among the highest in the world, and economic freedom has been damaged beyond repair, I'm not sure the comparison indicates what you want it to. Let's do a comparison using statistics from the 1980's.

[lilpixieofterror]

Before I begin, let me honestly say that you presented a well argued post. You bring up some valid points. I don’t agree with everything, of course. So let’ talk about it shall we?

Thanks Nick, now let us do that.

….So, Mr. Romney grew up poor? Lady Romney married a pauper and they went into business together, and then worked their way up the social ladder? Don’t make me laugh. Sure, he gave away his inheritance. But I wonder was that before or after he became a successful businessman? You are correct. I don’t know her. I don’t know her motivation for marrying a former Governor’s son with a trust fund either. The fact remains that I earned more of my wealth than she did. I made money working my way up to the top. And tell me Crystal, how exactly did Lady Romney become rich?

There is no indication that the Romney's were loaded when they were married. Their first apartment is an indication of that and even then Nick, you are aware that a good marriage brings both partners closer together which in turn, leads to their success in other avenues? Assuming their marriage is like that, she has a lot to do with his success Nick. Again, you seem to assume a lot about a women you don't even know a thing about.

Of course they do. But I notice you don’t directly answer any of them. They certainly weren’t loaded questions.

Knowing the society differences is how one determines what factors go into the differences. It is pretty easy to provide more social care to your citizens when a good part of your defense bill is flipped by another country (for example). Simply put, why does Western Europe need large military spending or a military for anything beyond basic defense when somebody else is doing it for them? Plus, having a less diverse culture helps too because more people are on the same page and fewer conflicts arise from these culture differences.

Yes, but the counter-argument is that some say it was the diversity that was a result of the era of immigration that gave the US its strength. That the US is neither culturally nor genetically homogenous means the US is more able to adapt and innovate. Multiculturalism is an overall strength, not a weakness.

It brings with it advantages and disadvantages. Advantages is that you have more innovation because different cultures and thought process bring forth a good deal more view points and thus one of the reasons we could argue the US has had more technical and scientific revolutions when compared to other countries. Remember, it is the US that discovered modern silicon electronics that allow the electronics that we enjoy today. The downside is that these cultures sometimes clash and cause problems. Denmark doesn't have to worry about culture riots to the degree we do in the US simply because they don't have those clashes we got here.

Now it’s also true that the US has a much larger population than that of Demnark, or other Skandonavian Countries. To me, what this means that there is no universal economic model that works for all societies. In other words, AFAICT, socialism works very well for small, homogenous societies (or at least it does for some of them. It hasn’t worked too well for Greece as of late).

So it is unpractical for the US just cause we are not a small population nor are we a homogenous society.

Conservatives should qualify their rants against socialism. Instead of crap like ‘Red under the bed’ Commie scare techniques used against Obama, conservatives should point out that either socialism doesn’t work for the US, or that it doesn’t work for large societies.

Obama, at least what we see of his public side, isn't a commie. He sure is more socialistic then other people are, but when compared to many Europeans politics, Obama's public persona would be rather conservative. Then again, rhetoric is common in politics over reasoned discussion. You should know this by now.

Unless you can uncover evidence of number smudging amongst Western European countries like Denmark, how am I supposed to take this other than an Ad Hom? If they’re smudging the data and have been caught doing it, it should not be too hard to find evidence from a reputable source (BBC, National Geographic, World Health Org, United Nations, Congressional reports, Bloomberg). That list isn’t exhaustive, just don’t link me to the conservative version of the Huffington Post.

It's pretty commonly known Nick. We report our numbers of birth death rates differently and to stricter standards then many European countries do (our standard is stricter), so pointing out these numbers is misleading.

Well, you can take from this report from the LabourBureau. But it appears that Men make more than women in pretty much every job category, no matter what race or social class.

I've seen this chart Nick and it doesn't go into details at all. Plus, if companies ARE paying women less for being women, why doesn't our president order his judicial department to actually enforce the laws in place and make them pay women equally? Either the numbers are misleading and not giving us all the details or our government is failing us. What one is it?

I don’t think there is any hard line on what constitutes ‘poverty.’ It’s all relative. I’m poor compared to Lady Romney, but Rich compared to the average Afghani family. Either way, Do you agree or disagree that Denmark has a lower poverty rate?

Sure, but that doesn't answer why or tell us anything. What are the details behind it? Denmark's government is more for socialism then the US government is and as a result, these families that maybe poor in the US, has the government to take care of them in Denmark. Plus, socialism doesn't work for long anyway and it will fall apart, sooner or later.

Nah, since we’re talking about Federal Healthcare policies, why don’t we compare country to country? Even better, perhaps there’s information about the European Union as a whole? I’ll do some looking and see what I can find. For now, I think Denmark has us beat here.

I've read the HDI reports too Nick. One of the measurements of it, the average age of death, is only about 4-5 years, at most. In terms of the HDI, Denmark only has a 2.5% lead over the US over all. This hardly is a huge lead and we measure up better in some measurements then most of Europe does (our average salary is actually higher pre the HDI then Denmark's is at least it was last I read it).

Here, we agree 100%. I think it’s tragic that the US bears the cost of being the world police; or rather, we’re the shield against the east. Now some Europeans I know get all huffy when I point this out to them, but the fact remains that it’s much easier to spend money on your own populace when you don’ t have to fund something as expensive as an advanced, massive, powerful military. So I would say this point mitigates, but does not entirely excuse, the societal advantages that some Western European countries enjoy compared to the US.

Well Nick, there are some things I do like better about Europe and some things I like better about the US. Many of these countries enjoy the power of the US military protecting them so they, in turn, do not have to worry nearly as much about maintaining an expensive military and instead pass the cost onto the US. I mean, how expensive is an aircraft carrier or other military hardware? For example, our aircraft cargo fleet (which includes C-17s, C-130s, C-5s KC-135s, KC-10s, etc) numbers in the thousands, we have more military airlift capabilities then every country in the world, combined. Our Aircraft carrier fleet current numbers at 11, with 8 more being capable of light carrier duties, 1 in reserve, and 3 under construction, so a total of 20. That is more carriers then every country in the world, combined and if we counted ones under construction, we still have more. If somebody were to invade Denmark, do you think the US would come running to their aid? Oh yeah and why spend tons of money on a large military when somebody will simply pull you out of the hole? You are 100% correct, the US provides a shield from powers such as Iran, China, or Russia and if it wasn't for the US military power, they would have to do it themselves, which in turn would bring down their standards of living. Now what do I like better about Europe? I think the drug war is a waste of money and Europe has a better idea, legalize them and tax them. I like the idea their drinking age is 18 and not 21 and that their drinking and driving laws are far stricter such as in the UK, you walk out of a pub with your keys in your hand, you could be tested and get a DUI before you get into your car, I think that is kind of absurd, but we do need tougher drinking and driving laws in the US (although speed limits seem to be a suggestion once you exist the major cities). Those are things I think we can pick up about Europe and they, in turn, could realize that it is our military power, that allows them to be able to live as they do.

Yes Crystal, I know you’ve been to Europe. Your numbers are a little off, though. In January of 2011, one dollar bought €0.75 Now it buys €0.76. That’s a change of 1.3%. Your point is well taken, however. The Eurozone has indeed had its share of problems. But Denmark isn’t in the Eurozone now is it? And for good reason, apparently.

That isn't what AFN reported on their daily updates posted and that isn't what I remember spending in 2011 for a Euro as opposed to 2012 for a Euro. I was in Europe in 2012 and 2011 at the beginning and they reported those numbers. It is true, they are not part of the Eurozone as of now, but they are part of the EU and you'll find that there are problems with the EU as of now (such as richer countries are getting tired of carrying the burden of the poorer countries, goes to show that socialism doesn't work and is doomed to failure, sooner or later).

BTW while the Euro isn't the currency in Denmark, their currency is still somewhat pegged to the euro. That means if the euro gets weaker, theirs does too.

Edited to add, I was off on that one, from the charts I found the Euro was a little under 1.50 and now it is at 1.41, which isn't quite as bad of a drop as it took in 2001, but it is still dropping too so we'll see what it drops to and from what I'm finding, it took a pretty hard hit from the Japanese YEN too. Right now, it seems that the EU is having a bit of a financial issue which I'm sure is tied to the Greece crisis and with many other countries in the Eurozone having financial difficulties (I know Italy is sitting at a 120% debt to it's GDP as of now, one of the highest countries in the world).

Yes, I know you’re as well travelled, or perhaps even more than me. For myself, I’ve been to Japan, South Korea, United Kingdom, Germany, Austria, Italy, Switzerland, the Netherlands, Denmark, Kuwait, United Arabs Emirates, Iraq, Afghanistan, Kyrgyzstan, Jordan, & Mexico (). Most of my time overseas has been in the Middle East.

The advantage of the Air Force when you work with the aircraft directly as I do, is that you get to go everywhere, in small groups, and spend lots of time in different places while living in the same area as the locals do. So I've got to drive in those areas too (be careful when driving the UAE, your life is in your own hands there). So I've spent about roughly 2 years living over seas, in quite a few different countries from as little as a few days, to several months.

Do we at least agree that socialism seems to be working fine for Demark?…with the caveat that it was working well for Iceland until 2008 as well.

Sure, it worked find in the USSR too for a time. Socialism is doomed to failure due to a simple fact, why would Bob want to work harder when his money is being taken to support Jim who doesn't work?

[nickcopernicus]

Crystal & Othercheek, I am going to dig up some facts. I will take me a while but I will get back to you both.

[nickcopernicus]

Well, it SHOULD be good enough. Kudos to you.

Nick:
Well, thanks. I did not get where I am because I’m super smart or anything. I was just fortunate enough to have a good ethical upbringing that focused on hard work. I credit my ‘severely conservative’ () Christian grandmother for my work ethics. Plus, much as I complain about in America, I think that if you’re not retarded or physically handicapped, it’s within reach to live the American dream if you work hard enough; even if you were born poor like me.

OtherCheek:
Anyway, in some statistics Denmark is better, and in some the US is better.

Nick:
Err, if that was a Football game, I’d say Denmark Outscored the US 63 – 10. Cudoos on not cherry picking data.

OtherCheek:
I wonder who has fewer lawyers (ambulance chasers) per capita. Do you have any statistics on that?

Nick:
Not right now, but I will dig around and see what I can find. In the mean time, I ‘know a coupla lawyers’ ( get it?) and they’re not that bad.

OtherCheek:
I wonder who defends Denmark from aggressor nations like Russia or China? It's hard to have a national identity if you are undefended from aggressors.

Nick:
As Denmark is a part of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, the United States, among others, will defend them against eastern Aggressors. As I acknowledged with Crystal, this point mitigates, but does not entirely excuse their societal advantages. Take the number of people in prison, for example. That’s freaking crazy.

OtherCheek:When Denmark's GDP (per capita), is so much lower than ours, everyone gets paid less. You can have complete gender equality, and still be a failure economically.

Nick:
Sure, the US’s is 19% higher. I will give you that much. However, as the Danish don’t have to pay for as much, It’s not that big of a deal. In other words, you get some, you lose some. Yes, I would prefer to have more disposable income,

OtherCheek:
And the public corruption index ranks Denmark as NUMBER 1 throughout the world. US is #20. So, picking Denmark as a comparison wasn't very helpful to your argument, IMO.

Nick:
I’m not certain, but I think you’re reading that data wrong. This report at the Telegraph.uk references Transparency international. It ranks Denmark as the 2nd least corrupt country while the US is the 24th. Though if you ask me, I’ll eat my hat if Qatar is ‘less corrupt’ than the US.

OtherCheek:
Finally, since America has become pretty much a socialist state where lawyers and judges and big government rules, corporate tax rates are among the highest in the world, and economic freedom has been damaged beyond repair, I'm not sure the comparison indicates what you want it to. Let's do a comparison using statistics from the 1980's.

Nick:
I think your definition of ‘Socialism’ may need some tweeking. Perhaps if you started not looking at everything in black and white as it appears you do?
Let’s not look at the 1980s for several reasons. 1) Regan wasn’t nearly as ‘conservative’ as you probably think (hint, the national debt exploded, and he made it easier for foreign entities to buy US treasury bonds) 2) I’m too damn lazy to take the considerable effort to obtain reliable information about that time period, and finally, 3) while the past is important, we need to deal with things are they are, not how they ‘used to be.’

So, how does the US stack up against Denmark? Not so good.

These are a few comparisons that I made. I did not cherry pick the data (I picked the criterion before I really looked) Sources include the CIA WorldFactbook, United Nations Data Retrival, International Centre for Prison Studies (ICPS),and the World Economic Forum

Category	Unites States	Denmark
GDP per Capita	$48,100 (2011 est.)	$40,200 (2011 est.)
Poverty Rate	15.1% (2010 est.)	13.4% (2011)
Abortion per 1000 Women	20.8 (2003)	14.3 (2005)
Homicide per 100,000	5.48 (2007)	1.39 (2007)
infant mortality rate (per Capta)	5.98	4.19
# in prison per 100,000	730	74
Gender equality rank (top 20)	17	7
Unemployment rate	9.1 (2011 est)	6% (2011 est.)
Dept to GDP	69.4% of GDP (2011 est.)	46.5% of GDP (2011 est.)
% of hot chicks per 100,000 females*	12,000 (2011 est.)	45,000 (2010 est.)
Life Expectancy	78.49 years	78.78 years
HealthCare % of GDP	16.2% of GDP (2009)	7% of GDP (2009)
Obesity	33.9% (2006)	11.4% (2006)
Defense spending (%of GDP)	4.06% of GDP (2005 "est" .)	1.3% of GDP (2007 est.)
Sex Ratio	15-64 years: 1 male(s)/female	15-64 years: 1.01 male(s)/female

* Obviously I made this up off my personal experience and should not be taken as scientific data, but rather my opinion.

Okay, Discuss

Cheers,

Nick

[lilpixieofterror]

I'll make a few comments here and there on some of your stuff to OC.

Err, if that was a Football game, I’d say Denmark Outscored the US 63 – 10. Cudoos on not cherry picking data.

The one thing about stats is that they do not tell us everything that is going on nor do they tell us what the specific causes. That is why you got to be careful of stats, they don't say everything. I'll get more into that in a minute.

As Denmark is a part of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, the United States, among others, will defend them against eastern Aggressors. As I acknowledged with Crystal, this point mitigates, but does not entirely excuse their societal advantages. Take the number of people in prison, for example. That’s freaking crazy.

This is where stats get to be misleading. The reason the US has higher number of prisoners is that we tend to throw people in jail for lesser offenses then other western countries do. In the US, we throw people into jail for finding a bag of weed in their back seat, in Europe, even countries that is illegal in tend to turn a blind eye to it. That is why we shouldn't just use stats, but look at the why and how too.

Sure, the US’s is 19% higher. I will give you that much. However, as the Danish don’t have to pay for as much, It’s not that big of a deal. In other words, you get some, you lose some. Yes, I would prefer to have more disposable income,

Such a system though creates dependency upon the government for aid. Do you want an entire country that is dependent upon the government for their basic needs? Plus, is such a system can't last forever as the recent European debt crisis is showing us.

So, how does the US stack up against Denmark? Not so good.

Humm, many of those numbers are not really accurate or don't tell us anything. For example, what is the measurement for women's equality? Pay rates? What about the culture of a country? I know more American women do not have full time jobs when compared to European women. This in turn, is going to lead to a less rate of pay. If you find abortion numbers as bad, why are you supporting them? Likewise, how do you measure 'women hotness'? That doesn't sound very scientific to me. Finally, I find the reason obesity is more common in the US is our diets consist of less health foods as European diets do and we don't walk around as much. I'm sure I can go on and on, that is the problem though with just raw numbers, it doesn't tell us the causes. Is it cause of the US culture or something else?

[nickcopernicus]

There is no indication that the Romney's were loaded when they were married. Their first apartment is an indication of that and even then Nick, you are aware that a good marriage brings both partners closer together which in turn, leads to their success in other avenues? Assuming their marriage is like that, she has a lot to do with his success Nick. Again, you seem to assume a lot about a women you don't even know a thing about.

Nick:
Okay, let’s look at this a little further. I will refer you to the source that is least likely to paint Mitt Romney in a bad light: His official website for voters. Let’s look at his rather short biography. I am going to provide some quotes that should help us establish a rough timeline.

Selected Quotes From Romney’s Biography

“They [Ann & Mitt] first met in elementary school when he was a Cub Scout”
“When they [Ann & Mitt] met again years later at a friend’s house, he was smitten.”
“Mitt married his wife, Ann, in 1969”
“After graduating from Brigham Young University in 1971, he earned dual degrees from Harvard Law and Harvard Business School”
“Mitt founded the investment firm Bain Capital in 1984”
“[H]e salvaged the 2002 Winter Olympic Games from certain disaster”
“When Mitt was elected Governor of Massachusetts in 2002…”

© source where applicable

Nick:
So from what can we tentatively conclude from these soundbites?

• Though they met at a young age, their relationship did not start until much later
• It’s rather difficult to determine exactly how much Romney paid for tuition at BYU because, although the university gives historical tuition rates, it does not say if it’s per semester/credit hour or what. But let’s give him the benefit of doubt and say it wasn’t that expensive. But what about his 5 years at Harvard? Crystal, unless Romney was very smart, I doubt he could get afford going to Harvard being poor.
• If we consider his father’s wealth, or his own bourgeoning wealth, he was well on his way to being wealthy by the time they married

Yes, it’s true that a good marriage can be good for business, but as we have no real ideal as to the state of their marriage, I don’t think we can credit or discredit Romney’s financial success on account of her.

Either way, I maintain that I’m more successful than she is on account of me earning more of my money than she did.

LPOT:
Knowing the society differences is how one determines what factors go into the differences. It is pretty easy to provide more social care to your citizens when a good part of your defense bill is flipped by another country (for example). Simply put, why does Western Europe need large military spending or a military for anything beyond basic defense when somebody else is doing it for them? Plus, having a less diverse culture helps too because more people are on the same page and fewer conflicts arise from these culture differences.
[…continued…]
It [multiculturalism] brings with it advantages and disadvantages. Advantages is that you have more innovation because different cultures and thought process bring forth a good deal more view points and thus one of the reasons we could argue the US has had more technical and scientific revolutions when compared to other countries. Remember, it is the US that discovered modern silicon electronics that allow the electronics that we enjoy today. The downside is that these cultures sometimes clash and cause problems. Denmark doesn't have to worry about culture riots to the degree we do in the US simply because they don't have those clashes we got here.

Nick:
All of what you write above is true. But don’t you agree that multiculturalism is one of the advantages the US has over Denmark? It has been proven again and again both in evolution and in economics, that the more diverse a society or species, the more they are able to adapt and overcome difficulties.

The success of companies like Facebook, Twitter, Google, and of course, Apple, with NO counterparts (except perhaps ARM Holdings of the United Kingdom) in the European Union in spite of the financial crisis of 2008 show that while America may be down, it still continues dominate the world culturally, economically, and militarily. I would say we owe a great deal to our multicultural population. Of course, with my table comparing the US and Denmark, we have areas that need work.

LPOT:
So it is unpractical for the US just cause we are not a small population nor are we a homogenous society.

Nick:
Maybe not at the federal level. The states, perhaps?

LPOT:
Obama, at least what we see of his public side, isn't a commie. He sure is more socialistic then other people are, but when compared to many Europeans politics, Obama's public persona would be rather conservative. Then again, rhetoric is common in politics over reasoned discussion. You should know this by now.

Nick:
Yes, I know a great deal of it is rhetoric. The problem is that many voters take this stuff literally. And America is worse for it. The last thing we need is an ignorant voting public. So when commentators like Glen Beck spout off ‘birther’ nonsense and how perhaps Obama’s a Muslim, or that he’s really a Marxist, my blood boils because some people, many of them voters, actually believe that stuff.
Karl Rove, Sean Hanity, Bill O’ Riley, and other conservative commentators are a bit more sophisticated than the likes of Beck and Limbaugh, but their socialist rants are thinly veiled.

LPOT:
It's pretty commonly known Nick. We report our numbers of birth death rates differently and to stricter standards then many European countries do (our standard is stricter), so pointing out these numbers is misleading.

Nick:
Well, it’s not common to me. Humour me and provide me a link will you?

LPOT:
I've seen this chart Nick and it doesn't go into details at all. Plus, if companies ARE paying women less for being women, why doesn't our president order his judicial department to actually enforce the laws in place and make them pay women equally? Either the numbers are misleading and not giving us all the details or our government is failing us. What one is it?

Nick:
We all have to take some government statistics with a grain of salt. But we get information where we can find it right? Suffice it to say that a good example of problems with gender inequality is in the form of the attempted Class Action lawsuit that got shot down by the Supreme Court. You probably heard of it; it was about gender discrimination in one of America’s largest corporations.

As to answering your second question, I don’t think the numbers are off or that the government is failing us (or at least not directly). Gender inequality is a cultural issue that, while the government has SOME influence, I think a bottom up approach will make more of a difference. I’ve read before (I can’t remember where at this time) that one of the reasons women make less than men for the same job is that they don’t ask for as much when negotiating salaries. It’s good that women aren’t as ‘greedy’ as men, but it’s to their detriment here.

This is not to say that the government can’t help; but the problem lies with the American people themselves and the mostly male businessmen who own the vast majority of companies.

LPOT:
Sure, but that doesn't answer why or tell us anything. What are the details behind it? Denmark's government is more for socialism then the US government is and as a result, these families that maybe poor in the US, has the government to take care of them in Denmark. Plus, socialism doesn't work for long anyway and it will fall apart, sooner or later.

Nick:
Well, what details would you like? I’d be more than happy to get more specific with this because I think it’s important. Of course Denmark is more socialistic than the US. We see that one of the consequences of this is a lower poverty rate. Surely that’s not a bad thing.

As to socialism not working for long, AFAICT all civilizations end sooner or later so that it’s not permanent does not detract from its usefulness. Don’t get me wrong. I’m not a ‘socialist’ by any stretch. But I will acknowledge that it works for some. Any poorly executed economic strategy is doomed to fail. My point is the economic model is not as flawed as died in the wool conservatives would like it to be. They’re still stuck in the Cold War.

LPOT:
I've read the HDI reports too Nick. One of the measurements of it, the average age of death, is only about 4-5 years, at most. In terms of the HDI, Denmark only has a 2.5% lead over the US over all. This hardly is a huge lead and we measure up better in some measurements then most of Europe does (our average salary is actually higher pre the HDI then Denmark's is at least it was last I read it).

Nick:
True, in matters of life expectancy, the US and Denmark are at a statistical tie. The difference isn’t all that large.
On matters of household income, it’s a little trickier. Apparently, unless one speaks Danish, information about their average incomes isn’t available to the casual viewer. It would be fallacious to compare incomes anyway because Denmark has some of the highest marginal tax rates in the world. But what they give up on earnings, I assume they make up in the form of budget surpluses and ‘free’ healthcare, schools, public pensions.

LPOT:
Well Nick, there are some things I do like better about Europe and some things I like better about the US. Many of these countries enjoy the power of the US military protecting them so they, in turn, do not have to worry nearly as much about maintaining an expensive military and instead pass the cost onto the US. I mean, how expensive is an aircraft carrier or other military hardware? For example, our aircraft cargo fleet (which includes C-17s, C-130s, C-5s KC-135s, KC-10s, etc)

Nick:
A brief interjection here (emphasis mine). Yes, I am familiar with the Air Mobility Command (AMC)’s fleet. You forgot the C-141 (now used exclusively by the Air National Guard).

I’m a certified Load planner and helped do Joint Inspections at the Deployment Center in Kaiserslautern, Germany and worked on the purple ramp in Ramstein. Ah those were the days eh? Now days, civilians do most of that work. At least the Army’s part anyway.

LPOT:
… numbers in the thousands, we have more military airlift capabilities then every country in the world, combined. Our Aircraft carrier fleet current numbers at 11, with 8 more being capable of light carrier duties, 1 in reserve, and 3 under construction, so a total of 20. That is more carriers then every country in the world, combined and if we counted ones under construction, we still have more. If somebody were to invade Denmark, do you think the US would come running to their aid? Oh yeah and why spend tons of money on a large military when somebody will simply pull you out of the hole? You are 100% correct, the US provides a shield from powers such as Iran, China, or Russia and if it wasn't for the US military power, they would have to do it themselves, which in turn would bring down their standards of living. Now what do I like better about Europe? I think the drug war is a waste of money and Europe has a better idea, legalize them and tax them. I like the idea their drinking age is 18 and not 21 and that their drinking and driving laws are far stricter such as in the UK, you walk out of a pub with your keys in your hand, you could be tested and get a DUI before you get into your car, I think that is kind of absurd, but we do need tougher drinking and driving laws in the US (although speed limits seem to be a suggestion once you exist the major cities). Those are things I think we can pick up about Europe and they, in turn, could realize that it is our military power, that allows them to be able to live as they do.

Nick:
Well we both agree that there are some advantages to both societies. Ultimately, which one is better comes down to a value judgment. It’s not as obvious as the differences between Iraq and Italy.

My point once more is that I feel frustrated when some people go and bash Europe like it’s super miserable and that all collectivist societies are complete utter failures. IOW, they act like there’s no difference between the Soviet Union & places like Denmark.
So when people accuse Obama of trying to make us ‘like Europe,’ I say, well, what part of Europe? If he’s trying to lower abortion rates, put fewer people in prison, and make our genders more equal, then I think that’s an admirable goal. Sure, Europe has a higher marginal tax rate than that of the US. But overall, they seem to have lower debt problems as well (yeah, yeah, Ireland, who has a lower corporate tax rate, France, Italy, Spain, Portugal, and of course, Greece notwithstanding).

Bottom line, we have to decide what we want our government to provide for us and pay for that provision, or we will be hurting sooner or later.

LPOT:
That isn't what AFN reported on their daily updates posted and that isn't what I remember spending in 2011 for a Euro as opposed to 2012 for a Euro.

Nick:
Well, I hate GayFN. Most of what they report is poorly written propaganda. But that’s my own bias showing.

LPOT:
I was in Europe in 2012 and 2011 at the beginning and they reported those numbers. It is true, they are not part of the Eurozone as of now, but they are part of the EU and you'll find that there are problems with the EU as of now (such as richer countries are getting tired of carrying the burden of the poorer countries, goes to show that socialism doesn't work and is doomed to failure, sooner or later).

Nick:
Well, I don’t think socialism is doomed to fail sooner or later. I think it works for some, not for others. It depends on who it is and how it’s executed.

LPOT:
BTW while the Euro isn't the currency in Denmark, their currency is still somewhat pegged to the euro. That means if the euro gets weaker, theirs does too.

Edited to add, I was off on that one, from the charts I found the Euro was a little under 1.50 and now it is at 1.41, which isn't quite as bad of a drop as it took in 2001, but it is still dropping too so we'll see what it drops to and from what I'm finding, it took a pretty hard hit from the Japanese YEN too. Right now, it seems that the EU is having a bit of a financial issue which I'm sure is tied to the Greece crisis and with many other countries in the Eurozone having financial difficulties (I know Italy is sitting at a 120% debt to it's GDP as of now, one of the highest countries in the world).

Nick:
I believe Japan, at 200% debt to GDP ratio holds the crown for the most indebted developed country. Either way, I do hope the Euro continues to fall or fails because It’s very expensive. So is Denmark for that matter. It’s $20 for a Red Bull & Vodka . I blame that on the US government for making our currency so weak though.

LPOT:
The advantage of the Air Force when you work with the aircraft directly as I do, is that you get to go everywhere, in small groups, and spend lots of time in different places while living in the same area as the locals do. So I've got to drive in those areas too (be careful when driving the UAE, your life is in your own hands there). So I've spent about roughly 2 years living over seas, in quite a few different countries from as little as a few days, to several months.

Nick:
My little brother is in the Airforce as well. Of course, he just forecasts weather and isn’t on any flight crews. But I did get to see him when he came down here and it was nice. Had I joined the AF instead of the Army, I might still be in.

LPOT:
Sure, it worked find in the USSR too for a time. Socialism is doomed to failure due to a simple fact, why would Bob want to work harder when his money is being taken to support Jim who doesn't work?

Nick:
I don’t know that it really ‘worked’ in the USSR. The Soviet Union was pretty much set up by imperial methods and did not arise as a result of a democratic process. I would say that a socialist government that has been democratically elected will last longer than an authoritarian one. Like I said, it’s all about execution.

Perhaps Bob will work harder because he knows that one day, he may depend on Jim, who is only not working right now because he has cancer.

Cheers,

Nick

[OtherCheek]

Speaking of wasteful spending, almost half a million dollars for Michelle Obama's vacation?
http://dailycaller.com/2012/04/26/gr...axpayers-467k/
Mitt Romney took no salary for the Olympics or as Mass. Governor. I'm pretty sure he isn't the type to do this kind of stuff.

[nickcopernicus]

[...stuff deleted] Likewise, how do you measure 'women hotness'? That doesn't sound very scientific to me.[...]

Nick

Just a quick note here. Since it was at the side of my table you probably missed my comment were I noted that I made this evaluation based on my opinion. It of course, is antedotal and should not be taken seriously. They do have some really good looking girls there, though. I think my future wife will be from there.

[lilpixieofterror]

Nick:
Okay, let’s look at this a little further. I will refer you to the source that is least likely to paint Mitt Romney in a bad light: His official website for voters. Let’s look at his rather short biography. I am going to provide some quotes that should help us establish a rough timeline.

Selected Quotes From Romney’s Biography

“They [Ann & Mitt] first met in elementary school when he was a Cub Scout”
“When they [Ann & Mitt] met again years later at a friend’s house, he was smitten.”
“Mitt married his wife, Ann, in 1969”
“After graduating from Brigham Young University in 1971, he earned dual degrees from Harvard Law and Harvard Business School”
“Mitt founded the investment firm Bain Capital in 1984”
“[H]e salvaged the 2002 Winter Olympic Games from certain disaster”
“When Mitt was elected Governor of Massachusetts in 2002…”

© source where applicable

Nick:
So from what can we tentatively conclude from these soundbites?

• Though they met at a young age, their relationship did not start until much later
• It’s rather difficult to determine exactly how much Romney paid for tuition at BYU because, although the university gives historical tuition rates, it does not say if it’s per semester/credit hour or what. But let’s give him the benefit of doubt and say it wasn’t that expensive. But what about his 5 years at Harvard? Crystal, unless Romney was very smart, I doubt he could get afford going to Harvard being poor.
• If we consider his father’s wealth, or his own bourgeoning wealth, he was well on his way to being wealthy by the time they married

Yes, it’s true that a good marriage can be good for business, but as we have no real ideal as to the state of their marriage, I don’t think we can credit or discredit Romney’s financial success on account of her.

Let me deal with this one by one:

1. I don't recall saying he didn't have money when he was younger my dear.
2. You have asserted, without evidence, that Mrs Romney 'slept her way' up. That is a huge charge and one that needs to be backed by evidence that you have yet to produce. A women who sleeps her way to the top tends to be one that marries somebody 20 years or more her senior. They are pretty close in age and much of the money Mitt has made was during his marriage.
3. She attended a private school in her youth, the same one Mitt attended, that right there shows her family was not poor. Her father was a business man who became president of Jered Industries, so sorry your assertion there also fall flat because she didn't 'sleep her way' up at all, her family had money and she married Mitt. I found this out just by reading her biography. Did you even bother to look up this information before you made her assertion?

Either way, I maintain that I’m more successful than she is on account of me earning more of my money than she did.

Money is not the only measurement of success, again looking at her bio she has:

- Earned several degrees
- Raised 5 children
- A survivor of quite a number of diseases. Know anything about MS?
- Was a huge part of her husband's campaign. From what her bio says, she campaigned for him on a nightly bases during Mitt's 1994 run for senate (which he lost).

Also, she has claimed in interviews to have 'never had a serious argument' and people criticized her for saying that! I've been married over a year and a half and I haven't had one either. Sure, we do disagree, but we don't raise our voices or get mad. That does tell me they have a pretty good marriage and while I may not agree with them in matters of politics and religion, I hope I can say the same thing after 40 years of being married. Sounds like she is quite successful to me, even though she doesn't get paid for it. You do know that a good husband/wife is something few people ever find, right? Success isn't just counted in dollars earned and I sure don't measure mine that way, I would rather be married to who I am married to right now then make millions of dollars and I mean that too. That is more successful to me then my ability to earn money.

All of what you write above is true. But don’t you agree that multiculturalism is one of the advantages the US has over Denmark? It has been proven again and again both in evolution and in economics, that the more diverse a society or species, the more they are able to adapt and overcome difficulties.

There are few things that do not come with disadvantages and advantages. Few things in life have all advantages and zero disadvantages.

The success of companies like Facebook, Twitter, Google, and of course, Apple, with NO counterparts (except perhaps ARM Holdings of the United Kingdom) in the European Union in spite of the financial crisis of 2008 show that while America may be down, it still continues dominate the world culturally, economically, and militarily. I would say we owe a great deal to our multicultural population. Of course, with my table comparing the US and Denmark, we have areas that need work.

That is the advantage, the disadvantage it causes is in some way related to that chart you brought forth, such as the higher crime rates that result in having that mix matched culture to deal with.

Maybe not at the federal level. The states, perhaps?

Some sure, but we still have many different races and ethnic groups living closely together in our cities.

Yes, I know a great deal of it is rhetoric. The problem is that many voters take this stuff literally. And America is worse for it. The last thing we need is an ignorant voting public. So when commentators like Glen Beck spout off ‘birther’ nonsense and how perhaps Obama’s a Muslim, or that he’s really a Marxist, my blood boils because some people, many of them voters, actually believe that stuff.
Karl Rove, Sean Hanity, Bill O’ Riley, and other conservative commentators are a bit more sophisticated than the likes of Beck and Limbaugh, but their socialist rants are thinly veiled.

Which is no different then the liberal commentators I have seen on TV either. I can barely stomach any of them and can't stand Glen Beck, I can't watch his show without changing the channel and the same goes for Rachael Maddow, I can't watch her show all the way though either. I can stomach Bill O'Riley or that other guy on MSNBC, but I just don't care for their tendencies to inject into the people they invite to their show to 'interview'. It is the same across the board, liberals are no different.

Well, it’s not common to me. Humour me and provide me a link will you?

http://pjmedia.com/blog/the-doctor-i...l-miscarriage/

The US reports lower birth weights then other countries do, we report babies that die within the first 24 hours while other countries do not, we report babies born before 26 weeks and many countries do not, and finally we also report babies that are below a certain measurement as an infant death if the baby dies while many countries do not. That is why those stats are misleading.

We all have to take some government statistics with a grain of salt. But we get information where we can find it right? Suffice it to say that a good example of problems with gender inequality is in the form of the attempted Class Action lawsuit that got shot down by the Supreme Court. You probably heard of it; it was about gender discrimination in one of America’s largest corporations.

Claims and actually being is two different things my friend. I have seen many people claim that there is some sort of conspiracy to keep women down going on, but evidence of this is well... not there.

As to answering your second question, I don’t think the numbers are off or that the government is failing us (or at least not directly). Gender inequality is a cultural issue that, while the government has SOME influence, I think a bottom up approach will make more of a difference. I’ve read before (I can’t remember where at this time) that one of the reasons women make less than men for the same job is that they don’t ask for as much when negotiating salaries. It’s good that women aren’t as ‘greedy’ as men, but it’s to their detriment here.

And it is therefore the companies fault that somebody doesn't decide to stand up for herself and negotiate her wage more sternly then a man would? I do not see that as a companies fault, but would you pay somebody more if they didn't ask for more and you really wanted them or the skills they had? Of course not.

This is not to say that the government can’t help; but the problem lies with the American people themselves and the mostly male businessmen who own the vast majority of companies.

And it is not the companies fault that somebody doesn't know the value of their work or will not be more assertive.

Well, what details would you like? I’d be more than happy to get more specific with this because I think it’s important. Of course Denmark is more socialistic than the US. We see that one of the consequences of this is a lower poverty rate. Surely that’s not a bad thing.

It is when it makes a person more dependent on the government for hand outs. Why better yourself or work to move up with the government will do everything for you? Short term gains mean little if they do not make a lasting impact.

As to socialism not working for long, AFAICT all civilizations end sooner or later so that it’s not permanent does not detract from its usefulness. Don’t get me wrong. I’m not a ‘socialist’ by any stretch. But I will acknowledge that it works for some. Any poorly executed economic strategy is doomed to fail. My point is the economic model is not as flawed as died in the wool conservatives would like it to be. They’re still stuck in the Cold War.

Sure, any form of government will work for a time, even a dictatorship works, but are those the best long term solutions? Not really because it fails to understand human nature for why go to work and earn a living when somebody will give it all to me instead? That is why socialism falls apart and that is a huge problem Russia found itself in at the fall of the USSR, they had a population dependent on the government for support and when the government was no longer able to provide it, tons of problems came as a result.

True, in matters of life expectancy, the US and Denmark are at a statistical tie. The difference isn’t all that large.
On matters of household income, it’s a little trickier. Apparently, unless one speaks Danish, information about their average incomes isn’t available to the casual viewer. It would be fallacious to compare incomes anyway because Denmark has some of the highest marginal tax rates in the world. But what they give up on earnings, I assume they make up in the form of budget surpluses and ‘free’ healthcare, schools, public pensions.

You know what they say about assumptions...

A brief interjection here (emphasis mine). Yes, I am familiar with the Air Mobility Command (AMC)’s fleet. You forgot the C-141 (now used exclusively by the Air National Guard).

The C-141 was retired in 2006 and are only found in mothball status right now. Most national guard units fly C-17s now (since congress wants us to keep buying the things, they got to go somewhere). Remember Nick, I am AF and I know all about this stuff.

I’m a certified Load planner and helped do Joint Inspections at the Deployment Center in Kaiserslautern, Germany and worked on the purple ramp in Ramstein. Ah those were the days eh? Now days, civilians do most of that work. At least the Army’s part anyway.

A loggie eh? We have military doing that in the AF, although contractors are used to a degree.

Well we both agree that there are some advantages to both societies. Ultimately, which one is better comes down to a value judgment. It’s not as obvious as the differences between Iraq and Italy.

And many of the advantages would not work in the US due to our population or culture.

My point once more is that I feel frustrated when some people go and bash Europe like it’s super miserable and that all collectivist societies are complete utter failures. IOW, they act like there’s no difference between the Soviet Union & places like Denmark.

Denmark would be more classified as a democratic socialist state then what the USSR had. It still has the same flaw though of creating people's overly dependent on government substance and, in return, this creates serious problems latter on. Some say this is why so many countries in Europe are starting to run into financial problems because they are spending more then they are taking in and thus, tanking. That and no matter how much I personally dislike it, there are finite supplies of things like food or medicine and the truth is that right now, we can't provide the best for everybody.

So when people accuse Obama of trying to make us ‘like Europe,’ I say, well, what part of Europe? If he’s trying to lower abortion rates, put fewer people in prison, and make our genders more equal, then I think that’s an admirable goal. Sure, Europe has a higher marginal tax rate than that of the US. But overall, they seem to have lower debt problems as well (yeah, yeah, Ireland, who has a lower corporate tax rate, France, Italy, Spain, Portugal, and of course, Greece notwithstanding).

I'm all for not throwing people in jail for having a bag a weed in their back seat and becoming more of a fan of legalizing weed. Also, when you are taking in more money, sure you're going to have a lower debt, but they still are not taking in enough to take care of their expenses and sooner or later, they will fall into a hole and be unable to dig their way out. Do I want to have the higher taxes, more dependence on government to provide needs, and the plies of debt that this cases? No, they can keep that. Our problem in the US with this is we want all those things, but for some reason, we do not want to flip the bill for it. Weird how that works, isn't it?

Bottom line, we have to decide what we want our government to provide for us and pay for that provision, or we will be hurting sooner or later.

That we will.

Well, I hate GayFN. Most of what they report is poorly written propaganda. But that’s my own bias showing.

While I do agree with you that their commercials suck beyond all belief (although I actually did see one that was kind of funny, although that may have been by accident) and much of their stuff they show is poorly written propaganda, I doubt they would make up exchange rates. Plus, I most likely messed up and it was around 1.50, not 1.80.

Well, I don’t think socialism is doomed to fail sooner or later. I think it works for some, not for others. It depends on who it is and how it’s executed.

I find it is doomed to fail because it creates a population dependent on government support, why work hard when the government will provide your needs for you?

I believe Japan, at 200% debt to GDP ratio holds the crown for the most indebted developed country. Either way, I do hope the Euro continues to fall or fails because It’s very expensive. So is Denmark for that matter. It’s $20 for a Red Bull & Vodka . I blame that on the US government for making our currency so weak though.

Europe has always been pretty expensive, but that is what ECOLA is for.

My little brother is in the Airforce as well. Of course, he just forecasts weather and isn’t on any flight crews. But I did get to see him when he came down here and it was nice. Had I joined the AF instead of the Army, I might still be in.

Weather doesn't get those cool TDY's that crews and mx gets. It is nice cause they do not freeze to death outside, it sucks cause they don't get all those travel things.

I don’t know that it really ‘worked’ in the USSR. The Soviet Union was pretty much set up by imperial methods and did not arise as a result of a democratic process. I would say that a socialist government that has been democratically elected will last longer than an authoritarian one. Like I said, it’s all about execution.

The USSR is the result of a total and complete government fall out that resulted in a new government towards the end of WWI. However; both systems do have the problem of creating a population overly dependent on government support.

Perhaps Bob will work harder because he knows that one day, he may depend on Jim, who is only not working right now because he has cancer.

Why? The government will provide all he needs, regardless of how sick he is, so why work?

[OtherCheek]

Either way, I maintain that I’m more successful than she is on account of me earning more of my money than she did.

I believe that Ann Romney followed the maxim "No other success can compensate for failure in the home." Ann Romney is a success even if she never earned a penny of her own after getting married.

[Darth Executor]

This is where stats get to be misleading. The reason the US has higher number of prisoners is that we tend to throw people in jail for lesser offenses then other western countries do.

One of the biggest problems the US has that Denmark doesn't have to deal with is the piece of crap third world country to the south. Mexico is a crap hole which results in heavy illegal immigration (most of whom are quite poor and skew a lot of the statistics in that direction) as well as organized crime (it doesn't help that Calderon and the rest of the Mexican government is likely owned by the cartels). This is bound to jack up mortality rates and poverty statistics. Let's not even get started on the fact that the Democratic party goes out of its way to herd certain minorities into poorly run neighbourhoods with no intention of helping them out because keeping them in fear of losing what little they have ensures a solid voting block will be there for them every election.

[nickcopernicus]

Speaking of wasteful spending, almost half a million dollars for Michelle Obama's vacation?
http://dailycaller.com/2012/04/26/gr...axpayers-467k/
Mitt Romney took no salary for the Olympics or as Mass. Governor. I'm pretty sure he isn't the type to do this kind of stuff.

Nick:
I am not exactly sure what your point here is. That Obama's too poor and can't afford to send his wife on vacation so he uses taxpayer's money to do so?