What would it take for it to be called a "shootout"?

[Hamster]

You're talking about whoever gave him the gun?

I vaguely remembered something about Mormons going on horseback to rescue Smith from jail or something, in that movie OC posted, I might be conflating the incidents

[Cow Poke]

Jesus had a trial, albeit unjust. Joseph had no trial. The mob did the job before it got to that.

OK, OC... IN EFFECT, how does this make a difference? Jesus was JUST and INNOCENT, had a mockery of a trial (or several) was pronounced innocent (kinda - I find no fault in Him) and was killed by the most cruel and torturous death the Romans employed.

Smith, on the other hand, was killed by a mob consisting largely, or at least in part, of some of the very same men that served Smith, and many of them were mad at him for marrying their wives, for destroying the press, for the Kirtland bank scandal... who knows what else they were mad about.... and I REALLY DO WISH he had stood trial, OC, but the similarities between Smith's death and Christ's death are nearly non-existent. Well, besides the fact that one of them is no longer dead.

And while Jesus PREVENTED violence at his arrest, even to the point of UNDOING what Peter did with his sword, Jesus went "like a lamb to the slaughter". Smith CLAIMED he was going to do that, but it didn't turn out that way.

[OtherCheek]

I vaguely remembered something about Mormons going on horseback to rescue Smith from jail or something, in that movie OC posted, I might be conflating the incidents

I think something was in the works to guard the prophet in jail from an attempt on his life, but I never heard that they were going to bust him out. Obviously, it never got that far.

[Xru]

who knows what else they were mad about

This MUST be a logical fallacy . . . but I'm not up on them enough to name it . . . anyone.

I'm calling you out on this one Cowboy . . . Noon . . . just you and me

[Cow Poke]

This MUST be a logical fallacy . . . but I'm not up on them enough to name it . . . anyone.

I'm calling you out on this one Cowboy . . . Noon . . . just you and me

I do SO appreciate you bringing calm and reason to this discussion, X.

[Xru]

Good Lord . . . I can't keep up with you rabble . . .

[Xru]

I do SO appreciate you bringing calm and reason to this discussion, X.

Thank you CP . . . just trying to keep a friend OUT of trouble;)

brb and Dr. Pepper break.

[Xru]

Then there is Sparko another Texan.

I bring this up because ya'll should know. . . Texans don't think like normal . . . I mean . . . ah, don't think like the rest of us Americas. They have a . . . ah, shall we say a unique perspective on . . . well, everything.

[OtherCheek]

OK, OC... IN EFFECT, how does this make a difference? Jesus was JUST and INNOCENT, had a mockery of a trial (or several) was pronounced innocent (kinda - I find no fault in Him) and was killed by the most cruel and torturous death the Romans employed.

Do you think there was anyone during Jesus' time who told lies about Jesus? Or who tried to make him appear guilty? I seem to recall that there were such people. We aren't ever told whether some of Jesus' followers turned on him. I suspect that many did. It's what the devil does with his time.

Smith, on the other hand, was killed by a mob consisting largely, or at least in part, of some of the very same men that served Smith, and many of them were mad at him for marrying their wives,

There is no evidence that Joseph had children from anyone but Emma. DNA testing has been done on the posterity of suspected children to show this fact. Indicating to me that these marriages were sealings and not sexual relationships.

for destroying the press,

Think 19th Century. Put in the context of the time, it was not uncommon for presses to be declared a public nuisance, and NOT destroying them often could lead to mob violence. It was not without precedence that presses were ordered to be destroyed by governors during that period. They had their reasons too. And critics usually don't consider them.

for the Kirtland bank scandal...

Yes, we've been over this, and there are two differing views of that as well.

who knows what else they were mad about....

Xru picked up on that one, and dealt with it, I thought.

and I REALLY DO WISH he had stood trial, OC, but the similarities between Smith's death and Christ's death are nearly non-existent. Well, besides the fact that one of them is no longer dead.

Both died unjustly. One on the spot, and the other after a trial.

And while Jesus PREVENTED violence at his arrest, even to the point of UNDOING what Peter did with his sword, Jesus went "like a lamb to the slaughter". Smith CLAIMED he was going to do that, but it didn't turn out that way.

Probably only because Peter had a sword instead of a gun.

[Xru]

Do you think there was anyone during Jesus' time who told lies about Jesus? Or who tried to make him appear guilty? I seem to recall that there were such people. We aren't ever told whether some of Jesus' followers turned on him. I suspect that many did. It's what the devil does with his time.

Oh yes . . the Pharisees . . . they hated Jesus . . . most of them I believe.

There is no evidence that Joseph had children from anyone but Emma. DNA testing has been done on the posterity of suspected children to show this fact. Indicating to me that these marriages were sealings and not sexual relationships.

Hmmmmm . . . okay.

Think 19th Century. Put in the context of the time, it was not uncommon for presses to be declared a public nuisance, and NOT destroying them often could lead to mob violence. It was not without precedence that presses were ordered to be destroyed by governors during that period. They had their reasons too. And critics usually don't consider them.

If memory proves correct the press or newspapers still hadn't come out of their 18th Century habit of spilling slander and horrible libel on certain people even at that time . . . It seem quite bizarre to the 21st Century mind.

Xru picked up on that one, and dealt with it, I thought.

CP can't get away with that!!!!!!!

Probably only because Peter had a sword instead of a gun.

You couldn't be saying that Jesus couldn't heal a bullet hole . .

[Cow Poke]

Do you think there was anyone during Jesus' time who told lies about Jesus? Or who tried to make him appear guilty? I seem to recall that there were such people. We aren't ever told whether some of Jesus' followers turned on him. I suspect that many did. It's what the devil does with his time.

In John 6:66 we see a number of Jesus followers leave Him. They just went away. And, yes, you know full well there were people who told lies about Jesus, but you ALSO know they were lies, because you know that Jesus was sinless. Right?

There is no evidence that Joseph had children from anyone but Emma. DNA testing has been done on the posterity of suspected children to show this fact. Indicating to me that these marriages were sealings and not sexual relationships.

Yes, I've read the Mormon talking points -- and, interestingly enough, one of the defenses against "hypocrisy" in Smith was that he DID have sexual relations, but no children resulted.

Think 19th Century. Put in the context of the time, it was not uncommon for presses to be declared a public nuisance, and NOT destroying them often could lead to mob violence. It was not without precedence that presses were ordered to be destroyed by governors during that period. They had their reasons too. And critics usually don't consider them.

Would it have been better for Smith to inquire of the Lord on this? He seemed to inquire of the Lord about things much less important. And if he had wisdom, knowing WHAT the press was about to report, he should have known that it would almost CERTAINLY cause a full scale riot.

Both died unjustly. One on the spot, and the other after a trial.

One fulling prophesy that he went as a lamb to the slaughter, and one, a "prophet", CLAIMED that's how he would die, but didn't.

Probably only because Peter had a sword instead of a gun.

SURELY you're not suggesting that Jesus could not have healed a gunshot wound.

[Xru]

SURELY you're not suggesting that Jesus could not have healed a gunshot wound.

I said it first . . . ha ha hga ha.

[master_mormon]

well usually in a shootout there is a good side and a bad side. Like when the Sheriff has a shootout with Bank Robbers. So the mob could be the bad side and Joseph Smith was the good guy who died trying to defend himself in a shootout.

I don't see the problem.

I don't see a problem. Perhaps the issue is the guns have been demonized in our culture so if a person fires a gun in even self defense some people can not seem to handle it.

[Cow Poke]

I don't see a problem. Perhaps the issue is the guns have been demonized in our culture so if a person fires a gun in even self defense some people can not seem to handle it.

Actually, MM, it has more to do with Smith's claims to be going "like a lamb to the slaughter". I've been around livestock all my life, and I have never seen a lamb fire a gun.

[OtherCheek]

Actually, MM, it has more to do with Smith's claims to be going "like a lamb to the slaughter". I've been around livestock all my life, and I have never seen a lamb fire a gun.

I believe the gun was for protection. Not just for Joseph, but for the 3 others in the jail. That has nothing to do with defining the term "martyr." Joseph was persecuted and hounded for his faith. The hounding and persecution started long before polygamy was ever an issue, and continued throughout his life. So, plural marriage wasn't at the heart of this. The hounding and the accusations of this and that and the other, caused the law to become involved. Not wanting Joseph to be acquitted and released like had happened so many times before, the mob decided to do the dirty deed themselves instead of leaving it in the hands of the law.

Lambs still struggle to live, CP, and they would use any means to protect themselves from death that their instincts would direct them to use. They don't have a death wish, even though they are "lambs". The fact is that they are "innocent". The analogy of using the term "lamb" is denote their innocence. But don't confuse innocence with eagerness to die for a cause. Rather than being "eager" to die, I would say Joseph was "willing" to die. But I don't think he wanted to have his brother or friends to die with him.