What would it take for it to be called a "shootout"?

[Sparko]

so basically even though it wasn't a commandment, Joseph Smith thought and taught that smoking and drinking was bad, and he said it was a word of wisdom from God. And despite this, he didn't listen to his own teaching, and drank and smoked anyway.

A case of "do what I say, not what I do" apparently.

[OtherCheek]

so basically even though it wasn't a commandment, Joseph Smith thought and taught that smoking and drinking was bad, and he said it was a word of wisdom from God. And despite this, he didn't listen to his own teaching, and drank and smoked anyway.

A case of "do what I say, not what I do" apparently.

Not the way I see it at all.

[Cow Poke]

Not the way I see it at all.

Well, DUH!

[Sparko]

Not the way I see it at all.

well that seems to be what you have been arguing so far. Whenever CP brought up the drinking and smoking in jail, you kept saying "it wasn't a commandment until 1933!!"

which can only mean that you don't think that it had to be followed and so Smith was free to ignore it. But since Smith was the one who brought up the WoW to begin with, and claimed that smoking and drinking was to be avoided, then him NOT following his own advice simply leaves us with "do as I say, not as I do"

No other conclusion is possible.

[OtherCheek]

well that seems to be what you have been arguing so far. Whenever CP brought up the drinking and smoking in jail, you kept saying "it wasn't a commandment until 1933!!"

which can only mean that you don't think that it had to be followed and so Smith was free to ignore it. But since Smith was the one who brought up the WoW to begin with, and claimed that smoking and drinking was to be avoided, then him NOT following his own advice simply leaves us with "do as I say, not as I do"

No other conclusion is possible.

I think the focus at the time was on "moderation" and "temperance" rather than total and complete abstinence. In fact, I know that the focus back then was not on complete abstinence.

[Cow Poke]

I think the focus at the time was on "moderation" and "temperance" rather than total and complete abstinence. In fact, I know that the focus back then was not on complete abstinence.

You're not getting it. Smith had a tremendous opportunity to die like Christ - as a lamb to the slaughter - that's the image he portrayed. And that's the image your Church portrays.

Stephen did this, even with the "Lord, lay not this sin to their charge". He was a true Martyr.

Smith, on the other hand -- smoking and drinking, handgun... reports that he had sent a message for the legion to come and rescue him.....

I asked a question earlier, OC... perhaps you missed it.

Would you be surprised to learn that many Mormons see "Carthage Jail" as the Mormon's "Calvary"?

[OtherCheek]

You're not getting it. Smith had a tremendous opportunity to die like Christ - as a lamb to the slaughter - that's the image he portrayed. And that's the image your Church portrays.

Stephen did this, even with the "Lord, lay not this sin to their charge". He was a true Martyr.

Smith, on the other hand -- smoking and drinking, handgun... reports that he had sent a message for the legion to come and rescue him.....

I asked a question earlier, OC... perhaps you missed it.

Would you be surprised to learn that many Mormons see "Carthage Jail" as the Mormon's "Calvary"?

I wouldn't make the comparison. Jesus faced Calvary in order to work out the Atonement. Joseph was not Atoning for our sins. I would have to see actual quotes from the leadership of the Church to view the context of this statement.

"Smoking, drinking, handgun?" You portray this as though Joseph was a chain smoker and had a six pack of beer and a six-shooter revolver when the mob came.

[Sparko]

I think the focus at the time was on "moderation" and "temperance" rather than total and complete abstinence. In fact, I know that the focus back then was not on complete abstinence.

could you quote the WoW where it says "moderation"?





http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-tes...dc/89?lang=eng

[Cow Poke]

could you quote the WoW where it says "moderation"?





http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-tes...dc/89?lang=eng

You don't know NUTHIN, Sparko, cause YOU didn't live in the 1840's. OC DID!

(although Mossy doesn't remember him from back then )

[humbled4444]

I see the ridicule persists...I think we need to clear up Joseph Smith's assasination first.

Shots were fired yes but it was the 200 man mob that fired first. One of these bullets hit Joseph Smith's brother "Hyrum" in the face killing him. Joseph Smith returned fire wounding 2 cowards. Joseph was later shot in the hip, chest heart and his collarbone pushing him out the window. He pulled himself up against a well shouted out to the Lord as 4 brave men walked up to him and finished the job.

Charges were brought against five accused leaders of the mob that had killed Joseph and Hyrum Smith, and they stood trial in May 1845. The defense argued that no individuals could be held responsible because the assassins were carrying out the will of the people. The jury, which included no Mormons, acquitted the defendants - now that's justice.

[rogue06]

That Smith was murdered as a result of mob violence isn't up for contention. The details of the incident are widely disagreed upon though.

[humbled4444]

That Smith was murdered as a result of mob violence isn't up for contention. The details of the incident are widely disagreed upon though.

Not really, there are only two verifiable sources both claim the mob shot first and both end up with Joseph Smith dead at the hand of cowards.

[Cow Poke]

Not really, there are only two verifiable sources both claim the mob shot first and both end up with Joseph Smith dead at the hand of a cowardly mob.

Hum, you can read Mormon sources and see disparities in the story. And the mob contained a number of Smith's own followers who were angry because they felt he betrayed them. There's a whole lot more to this story than a simple "the mob shot Smith".

I don't think anybody disputes it was an ugly scene, and I don't think any of us are cheering his death. It was not, however, "a lamb to the slaughter" on a par with the death of Christ.

[humbled4444]

Hum, you can read Mormon sources and see disparities in the story. And the mob contained a number of Smith's own followers who were angry because they felt he betrayed them. There's a whole lot more to this story than a simple "the mob shot Smith".

I don't think anybody disputes it was an ugly scene, and I don't think any of us are cheering his death. It was not, however, "a lamb to the slaughter" on a par with the death of Christ.

I must be missing something CP, did somebody say Joseph Smiths murder was on par with Jesus Christ? I would strongly disagree with such a statement. Joseph Smith was just a man murdered for what he believed in. Jesus Christ murder is a whole different ball game.

[Cow Poke]

I must be missing something CP, did somebody say Joseph Smiths murder was on par with Jesus Christ? I would strongly disagree with such a statement. Joseph Smith was just a man murdered for what he believed in. Jesus Christ murder is a whole different ball game.

I agree 100%. (with the caveat, of course, that, IMO, some of his murderers were there not because of what he believed, but because of his deceptions)