Learning about LDS without flames

[Xru]

Greetings - I'm starting this thread for anyone to participate in understanding the stipulation that there are no flames undue sarcasm, temper tantrums, ect.

I tried to start an OP with similar restrictions but failed to enforce them.

So be forewarned . . . anyone who violates these conditions while posting here I will immediately ask the moderators of the forum to strike them down with their wrathful swords.

This is an educational thread where questions and answers to "What is LDS and the like will be entertained."

This is not so much a debate thread (although I wonder how a non-debate thread could be started in Debate Forum) as a question, answer, get clarification through clarification, etc., type form.

Hopefully there will be less traffic on this Thread as it will be less fun to engage in than an all out brawl like some of the other threads . .. seriously.

[Xru]

First question and observation for my LDS friends:

I visited the Mormon official site and Lord . . . the first question I asked myself is "who is the marketing company that designed this site."

In other words, the first time I visited the Mormon site . . . I'm holding my mouth and thinking "talk about window dressing."

Yes . . I found it very much a turn off.

[OtherCheek]

First question and observation for my LDS friends:

I visited the Mormon official site and Lord . . . the first question I asked myself is "who is the marketing company that designed this site."

In other words, the first time I visited the Mormon site . . . I'm holding my mouth and thinking "talk about window dressing."

Yes . . I found it very much a turn off.

The Church has their own marketing department, and would not hire this out, I'm pretty sure.

You must have had expectations that were very different that what you saw.

The website doesn't bother me. But maybe it would take others by surprise.

[Xru]

In One Chance for a Clean Start, hum wrote:

"My take on the whole issue is this:

The secular world around us has gone a little mad. Morals, ethics and religion are under attack. The new Atheists are more militant and more aggressive now more than ever. With Creation no longer taught in our schools and prayer meetings being banned from our councils(I'm talking in the UK) I really don't think we have the luxury of fighting amongst ourselves anymore.

As far as I'm concerned, hanging out with God believing Men and Women is "A" OK wit me :-)"

I find this very astute and wholeheartedly agree.

I find myself, when I become embroiled in a "anything goes" thread that I tend to swing back and forth between conversation, flames, and reconciliation which isn't very becoming. What's a big word for it . . . humm, I'll think of it. . . anyway . . .

[humbled4444]

I am really looking forward to adding my humble comments but its 3am in the UK and I have work in a few hours :-)

[Xru]

I am really looking forward to adding my humble comments but its 3am in the UK and I have work in a few hours :-)

Oh Lord . . . . goodnight, sleep tight;)

[Xru]

The Church has their own marketing department, and would not hire this out, I'm pretty sure.

You must have had expectations that were very different that what you saw.

The website doesn't bother me. But maybe it would take others by surprise.

Probably not OC . . I'm just hypercritical of media marketing. It's probably just called being smart!

Although Christ is depicted as being WASP with beautiful long hair . . . at least they didn't give him BLUE eye, ha ha.

That would have been even a bigger turn off, or more of a laugh.

[Xru]

I want to point out hear that contrary to some twebbers, I don't feel that LDS labeling Protestants apostate, is a great problem. RCC labels everyone apostate

So does the Eastern Orthodox I think . . . I think this is something for the paper-pushers and pencil-necks to scratch their heads over, not the rank and file.

Heck I'm more of an anarchist when it comes to Christianity . . . so why would I get riled up because a bunch of desk bound administrators declared another of my Brothers/Sisters in Christ apostate.

[OtherCheek]

Probably not OC . . I'm just hypercritical of media marketing. It's probably just called being smart!

Although Christ is depicted as being WASP with beautiful long hair . . . at least they didn't give him BLUE eye, ha ha.

That would have been even a bigger turn off, or more of a laugh.

The Church as been putting out Bible videos for about a year now, depicting the life of Christ. What you saw on the front page is a still frame from their latest Bible video.

[Xru]

Okay I'm watching the Joseph Smith: The Prophet of the Restoration and it seems very Pollyanna. But I'll watch the rest of it.

At around 7 minutes it really seems he was challenged by a demonic spirit which somehow precedes his connection with God.

Perhaps nitpicky but plates of gold as depicted in this movie would be too heavy to carry without aid . . .

So this movie explicitly states that the Book or Mormon I think it is, is an additional witness for the Glory of Christ, and not a replacement for the Bible. This makes me feel better. But is it the truth?

At 22 minutes I'm thinking . . . boy this movie seems naive . . . but in honesty no more naive that movies about Christ.

[Xru]

The Church as been putting out Bible videos for about a year now, depicting the life of Christ. What you saw on the front page is a still frame from their latest Bible video.

okay

[Cow Poke]

I am really looking forward to adding my humble comments but its 3am in the UK and I have work in a few hours :-)

SO????????????



(kidding)

[Cow Poke]

Okay I'm watching the Joseph Smith: The Prophet of the Restoration and it seems very Pollyanna. But I'll watch the rest of it.

At around 7 minutes it really seems he was challenged by a demonic spirit which somehow precedes his connection with God.

Perhaps nitpicky but plates of gold as depicted in this movie would be too heavy to carry without aid . . .

So this movie explicitly states that the Book or Mormon I think it is, is an additional witness for the Glory of Christ, and not a replacement for the Bible. This makes me feel better. But is it the truth?

At 22 minutes I'm thinking . . . boy this movie seems naive . . . but in honesty no more naive that movies about Christ.

well, being VERY POLITE so I don't get my butt kicked to the back lot, the movies about Christ make him look like a totally innocent guy, and without fault because... um... WHY do they do that?

The movie about Smith, however, fails to even mention some of the "challenges" he was involved in. Now, FULLY UNDERSTANDING that this is a "Mormon" production, and is going to be "pro-Smith"... it seems odd to me that so many significant events in his life were totally overlooked.

Am I being nice enough?

[Xru]

well, being VERY POLITE so I don't get my butt kicked to the back lot, the movies about Christ make him look like a totally innocent guy, and without fault because... um... WHY do they do that?

The movie about Smith, however, fails to even mention some of the "challenges" he was involved in. Now, FULLY UNDERSTANDING that this is a "Mormon" production, and is going to be "pro-Smith"... it seems odd to me that so many significant events in his life were totally overlooked.

Am I being nice enough?

Yes CP and like any good Texan you were much quicker on the draw than me. I'm still watching the video and I have to say that the full impression I get from the film is that it is a very slick and polished presentation of Smith.

There is NO mention of some or the more well known charges against Smith which I am still researching.

But I don't think on that basis anyone, you, me or anyone else could logically use that as an excuse to condemn the teachings . . . it sure is an eye openner.

I do have a question that our LDS friends can answer (I really don't expect them to answer any "charge" that the film is relevant . . . . as its "smart" religion.

I have this question about the Kinderhook Plate fraud http://www.exmormon.org/whyileft.htm

The interesting passage is the following:

"Here is a simple example of how Joseph Smith was a fraud. You can read this in the official Mormon History, but few Mormons ever bother to read it. Some farmers in Kinderhook devised a hoax in 1843 and made up some copper plates which they claimed contained ancient writings. They planted them in an Indian burial mound and later dug them up again. When Smith saw the plates, he immediately "translated" part of them, which (he claimed in his diary) identified the writings as from "a descendant of Ham, through the loins of Pharaoh...". Here is the exact quote from the Documentary History of the Church:

"I insert fac-similes of the six brass plates found near Kinderhook, in Pike county, Illinois, on April 23, by Mr. Robert Wiley and others, while excavating a large mound. They found a skeleton about six feet from the surface of the earth, which must have stood nine feet high. The plates were found on the breast of the skeleton and were covered on both sides with ancient characters."

"I have translated a portion of them, and find they contain the history of the person with whom they were found. He was a descendant of Ham, through the loins of Pharaoh, king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the Ruler of heaven and earth. "

For many years, the church claimed that these plates were authentic ancient writings, in spite of the fact that the farmers later admitted the hoax - evidently the fact that Smith had translated part of them made it too embarrassing to accept the hoax. After resorting to more and more implausible and desperate arguments, the church flip-flopped about 10 years ago, and now admits that the plates are phony. The 1981 August Ensign has the statement where the church admits that the plates were a hoax. Of course, this leaves them with the embarrassing quote from Smith's diary.... In spite of the fact that this quote is confirmed by contemporary newspaper reports, they conclude that THIS has to be a false report (indeed, many supposed entries in Smith's diary are generally regarded as fraudulent -- something that church historians don't like to emphasize).

The essential problem here is not the Kinderhook plates themselves, of course. The problem is that since Smith is revealed as credulous or deceitful in cases where he CAN be checked, the Book of Mormon translation, where he cannot be checked, is rendered highly suspicious."

Now I post this as a chance for our LDS Brothers in Christ to make a reasoned response to these very serious charges. If they can't be refuted it really leaves Smith looking very very bad.

You are being good CP . . . don't blow it Brother

[OtherCheek]

I think the article in the Ensign Magazine that was cited does a better job than I could ever do. Any material I write would probably be taken from there. But I do have one thing that I can add:

The Kinderhook saga and subsequent criticism against Joseph attempts to create a misconception (and play off that misconception) that Joseph Smith pretended to have a gift to be able to translate anything put before him. But this is not the case, and I believe Joseph knew that. And so I tend to believe that an attempt of Joseph to translate the Kinderhook Plates was never actually made. The intense fervor and excitement over this supposed discovery of these plates generated a lot of gossip and headlines that just were not founded in reality.

This gift of Joseph's to translate was a spiritual gift of God, and not a gift to be braggadociosly brandished about town for the sake of impressing people. It was to be used and I believe would only function under God’s approval and power and only to fulfill God’s own purposes. God’s purposes do not involve impressing people’s carnal desires and curiosities. That just isn’t the way God works. And God never allows his spiritual gifts to be used in unrighteousness.

Here is a verse from the Doctrine and Covenants explaining this to Joseph long before the Kinderhook plates ‘test’ came along:

Doctrine and Covenants 5:4
And you have a gift to translate the plates; and this is the first gift that I bestowed upon you; and I have commanded that you should pretend to no other gift until my purpose is fulfilled in this; for I will grant unto you no other gift until it is finished.

In the end, there are reasons to believe and reasons to disbelieve. There always will be until the day when all things are revealed.