Learning about LDS without flames

[humbled4444]

I like plenty of Mormons on a personal level. Criticizing ideas isn't the same as hating the person who, for whatever reason, doesn't see it my way. As far as the actual church organization, what response can you expect from someone who thinks the Church perpetuates fraudulent blasphemy? Doesn't mean I don't acknowledge good things done by the church (e.g. charity) or that its members are well-meaning, but if we're right then it's hard to see the organization and its prophets as benign. I think that if the LDS were consistent they would feel the same way about orthomainstreamo Christian organizations

Thank you for your comment Hamster. Could you explain why your feel the LDS church "perpetuates fraudulent blasphemy?

[Hamster]

Fraudulent in that Joseph Smith (and other prophets) claimed to be receiving revelation. The revelations contradict what's been revealed by Christ and his apostles. Smith doesn't seem to be insane so the only conclusion is that he deliberately lied about Jesus/God, debasing them for personal gain

[Cow Poke]

"You wouldn't let me teach theology to your grandchildren"- is that because you think I would suck at teaching theology or because I would teach LDS theology?

I have no reason to believe you would suck (gee, I hate that word) at teaching theology. I would ASSUME (correct me if I'm wrong) that you would have a "Mormon viewpoint" in teaching theology, yes?

May I ask if your sentiment would also apply if I were Muslim or Jewish?

Muslim, wouldn't allow. Jew, probably yes, because it is the foundation of our faith, and I can bridge to the New Testament from there.

And THUS FAR, I am appreciating the dialogue with you.

[humbled4444]

Fraudulent in that Joseph Smith (and other prophets) claimed to be receiving revelation. The revelations contradict what's been revealed by Christ and his apostles. Smith doesn't seem to be insane so the only conclusion is that he deliberately lied about Jesus/God, debasing them for personal gain

May I ask, Do you feel the same about Muhammad the Islamic prophet? Ellen White of the seventh-day adventist church?

[Xru]

so, you want ME to get back to the OP, but YOU can sidebar to Palestinian sociology?!?!?!

(kidding -- yessir - back to the OP)

You are so likable CP . . . you are like sticky glue;)

[Cow Poke]

You are so likable CP . . . you are like sticky glue;)

I'm back on track and being nice, X.

[Xru]

Hey X!

There are several other threads on Tweb about the Kinderhook Plates. I'm very pleased you're getting a good response, because when we tried before, this was OC's initial response....



You can click on the hyperlink in the quote above to see our previous discussions on this.

As you can see, there was quite a bit of confusion over this with, for example, Jo claiming Smith began translating, but was killed before he finished....



Then, almost immediately after....



So there is confusion, to be honest, whether he actually believed the plates were real, and started translating them, or never did anything with them ... and a lot of this comes from the Mormon's own records.

So, I hope you can see I'm still being nice --- I'm just providing EXACT QUOTES of what was said before. And if there's any question about CONTEXT, the hyperlinks are there to see exactly what was said before and after.

I'm not going to bite. This OP is NOT about what happened in other threads. This is a thread that I wan'ted to start because I want to learn about the Mormons and if there are others who want to learn then fine. They are welcome.

Frankly, I don't care and I don't want to deal with what was said in other threads. It will just escalate and invite counter posts by LDS's.

[Cow Poke]

I'm not going to bite. This OP is NOT about what happened in other threads. This is a thread that I wan'ted to start because I want to learn about the Mormons and if there are others who want to learn then fine. They are welcome.

Frankly, I don't care and I don't want to deal with what was said in other threads. It will just escalate and invite counter posts by LDS's.

While I respect your wishes, I'm a little surprised that, whereas you raised the issue of the Kinderhook plates, you would not want to see what the Mormons have said about it. But, Whatever you say, boss!

[Xru]

My Orthodox friends, it seems to me (from your comments) that you just don't want to like our organisation :-) we are very likeable once you cut through the anti-LDS propaganda I promise. I believe the media and others have sadly done a great job in distorting the image and facts as well as creating a level of distrust and skepticism of our community. It is sad so many willingly just buy into it without finding out for themselves. If you wish to understand what we really believe, what our motives are and our views/interpretations are then Hello, my friend. Stay awhile and listen...

That's what I'm here for . . . and the rest of you?

This particular paragraph has been customised for you dear Xru :)
I believe one day a terrible war will be fought between the forces of good and evil. Amoungst the bloodshed, the carnage, the sheer destruction and hate there you lie all bloodied and waiting for the end. You see your comrades lying dead all around you, you see the enemy approaching, you figure this is it the end. Then boom blam blam immediate danger is taken care of and i pull your arse to safety and its at that moment you realise were fighting the same fight dear brother :-) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2UB6nkHLc4&sns=em (thats me at 0:48

Agreed . . .

I believe you will eventually discover we have much in common and although our doctrines and church history/interpretations differ we are all sinners fighting the same war.

That is to be seen . . . and ya I do have an open mind. Looking good and bad at this point .. .

As for the rest of you my brothers and sisters, you will see I talk from the heart. I am not an LDS powerhouse nor do I pretend to be, hell I'm not even a good Latter-Day Saint. Just a humble sinner striving everyday to follow my Saviours example. Although this wasn't always the case, I have developed a great love and respect for all religions, cultures and views.

Love this humility . .. just makes one want to find a LDS and give them a big hug:)

[humbled4444]

I'm really battling using the quote mechanism on my tablet :( Please bear with me...

@CP: This may surprise you but if you asked me to teach your grandkids theology I would not have a problem leaving the LDS "differences" out. All our Bible stories are the same, Christs ministry his sacrifice and his resurrection are the same (as far as I can remember). Pretty much everything Biblical would be the same. This would NOT be a problem...

[Xru]

Of course you do my friend, your presupposed biases and current suspicions will not allow you to entertain anything LDS at present :)

Very wrong here hum.

As I tried to point out I'm extremely critical of ALL media manipulation LDS, Protestant, RCC, etc.

This is understandable especially considering the anti-LDS sites you folks insist on visiting, exmormon.org, eeeeek.

Please don't throw me into a class. I'm right here and you can talk to me. I've never been to an anti-mormon website. But thanks for the suggestion hum. Very nice of you.

When I went through my inactive years I went to that site and was disgusted and shocked at the level of hate and negativity found there. They have no objectivity, they quote mine, take things out of context and they scour the deepest darkest places for anything they can use as ammunition against the church.

In that case I'll go to those sites when I want some good laughs at the expense of anti-Mormons, okay. You seem to think that anyone that is marginally critical of Mormons is a brainless retard when visiting idiot sites like you refer to. Of all the bad qualities I have, idiot is not one of them, although there are some twebbers who would suggest otherwise.

Or I'm over-thinking all of this and you simply dislike the site because your tastes differ from mine :)

You are over thinking;)

[Xru]

The Kinderhook Plates (I'll throw some more in) The Spalding documents, The lost 116 pages and a few more all attempt to discredit Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. Most people when looking to discredit the church come across brother (RIP) and sister Tanners work - God bless them. They were both members of the church but left and became professional anti-Mormon activists.

A lot of the anti-Mormon literature discusses their "research".
Not to speak ill of the dead but their scholarly behavior and common courtesy leaves little to be desired and have received much criticism from secular historians. They purposely omit / avoid any evidence or sources that modify or refute their biased interpretation of Mormon history. Their claims have been answered over the years, please see the following responses issued by www.fairlds.org:

One explanation
http://www.fairlds.org/authors/misc/...derhook-plates

and another
http://en.fairmormon.org/Forgeries_r...derhook_Plates

I feel both of these responses (chosen out of many) provide a good critique for the charges levied against Joseph Smith. You are obviously free to weigh up the evidence for yourselves.

Also, I think people criticise Joseph Smith expecting him to be perfect. Did he make mistakes, of course - was he a little harsh and judgemental towards other religions, I would argue yes. Was the power, fame (within the LDS community anyway) too much for him to handle perhaps causing him to abuse his position and authority? Did he give into temptation and bring about Polygamy to allow easy access to those lovely young attractive LDS virgins? I don't know, but what I do know is even if he did it doesn't discredit the work he did earlier in his life. Like any man, he will be accountable for any wrong doings. Its between him and the Lord, its not our place to judge.

These are of course my thoughts / opinions on the matter not that of the LDS church or its members. I am simply stating he was a man and like all men he "could" have messed up. None of this however affects my testimony of the man or his work.

I'll read and look at the links you provided. Right now I am just taking names and deciding who's butt I'm gonna kick . . . not you . . . so far;)

[Xru]

While I respect your wishes, I'm a little surprised that, whereas you raised the issue of the Kinderhook plates, you would not want to see what the Mormons have said about it. But, Whatever you say, boss!

Thank you my friend for your co-operation.

[Cow Poke]

I'm really battling using the quote mechanism on my tablet :( Please bear with me...

@CP: This may surprise you but if you asked me to teach your grandkids theology I would not have a problem leaving the LDS "differences" out. All our Bible stories are the same, Christs ministry his sacrifice and his resurrection are the same (as far as I can remember). Pretty much everything Biblical would be the same. This would NOT be a problem...

Still, Hum, with all due respect, none of us can totally separate ourselves from our worldview.

[Xru]

I'm really battling using the quote mechanism on my tablet :( Please bear with me...

@CP: This may surprise you but if you asked me to teach your grandkids theology I would not have a problem leaving the LDS "differences" out. All our Bible stories are the same, Christs ministry his sacrifice and his resurrection are the same (as far as I can remember). Pretty much everything Biblical would be the same. This would NOT be a problem...

Have to love this guy .. .

You dont' teach that Protestants have horns on their heads and and are painted with black and white stripes?