Learning about LDS without flames

[Cow Poke]

But I don't think on that basis anyone, you, me or anyone else could logically use that as an excuse to condemn the teachings . . . it sure is an eye openner.

Agreed. It's like the "pictures" or images of Smith "translating" the plates in all of Mormon art -- I don't think you will EVER find pictures in widely available Mormon literature, or on the web, of Smith with his head in a hat, which is, apparently, the way he translated most of the BoM. He always seems to be sitting at a table, scribe at his side or across the table, with the golden plates in full view.

You are being good CP . . . don't blow it Brother

Just be sure to warn me before you chop off my head, OK?

[Xru]

Agreed. It's like the "pictures" or images of Smith "translating" the plates in all of Mormon art -- I don't think you will EVER find pictures in widely available Mormon literature, or on the web, of Smith with his head in a hat, which is, apparently, the way he translated most of the BoM. He always seems to be sitting at a table, scribe at his side or across the table, with the golden plates in full view.



Just be sure to warn me before you chop off my head, OK?

I'd never chop off your head without warning as I hope you'd never draw on me when I was unarmed, he he.

[Cow Poke]

I'd never chop off your head without warning as I hope you'd never draw on me when I was unarmed, he he.

Not even with a FATMAX Marks-a-Lot?

927590_sk_lg.jpg

[Cow Poke]

I think the article in the Ensign Magazine that was cited does a better job than I could ever do. Any material I write would probably be taken from there.

Hey X!

There are several other threads on Tweb about the Kinderhook Plates. I'm very pleased you're getting a good response, because when we tried before, this was OC's initial response....

Honestly, CP, we live in a world where brutal murders are posted on YouTube, and a world where marriage and the family are under attack, where militant atheism is on the rise, and where the Constitution is hanging by a thread, where satan rages in the hearts of men, and where the love of men wax cold, and you want to talk about the Kinderhook Plates?

You can click on the hyperlink in the quote above to see our previous discussions on this.

As you can see, there was quite a bit of confusion over this with, for example, Jo claiming Smith began translating, but was killed before he finished....

Joseph Smith began translating from the six plates, but never finished because he was murdered. They were lost during the Civil War. This information is recorded in our Church history.

Then, almost immediately after....

Looks like things can get really confusing in a hurry. It's still a "so what" to me. It doesn't look like Joseph Smith ever did anything with the plates. I guess he WAS a prophet; and even those around him and those who tried to fool him, were unable to. The story sucked me into it as well. Just like CP and Sparko.

So there is confusion, to be honest, whether he actually believed the plates were real, and started translating them, or never did anything with them ... and a lot of this comes from the Mormon's own records.

So, I hope you can see I'm still being nice --- I'm just providing EXACT QUOTES of what was said before. And if there's any question about CONTEXT, the hyperlinks are there to see exactly what was said before and after.

[humbled4444]

After I signed off last night I was doing a little scripture study (Bible and BoM) when I found my mind drifting. I started thinking of this forum and the comments I have read. I felt full of what I believe to be the spirit, and felt I should address a few issues before I discuss the questions you have brought up Xru, if thats ok my friend?

So before I add my two pennies worth please consider the following:

My Orthodox friends, it seems to me (from your comments) that you just don't want to like our organisation :-) we are very likeable once you cut through the anti-LDS propaganda I promise. I believe the media and others have sadly done a great job in distorting the image and facts as well as creating a level of distrust and skepticism of our community. It is sad so many willingly just buy into it without finding out for themselves. If you wish to understand what we really believe, what our motives are and our views/interpretations are then Hello, my friend. Stay awhile and listen...

It is my prayer that as we fellowship and discuss issues and concerns you will come to the realisation that we are not enemies but rather allies.

This particular paragraph has been customised for you dear Xru :)
I believe one day a terrible war will be fought between the forces of good and evil. Amoungst the bloodshed, the carnage, the sheer destruction and hate there you lie all bloodied and waiting for the end. You see your comrades lying dead all around you, you see the enemy approaching, you figure this is it the end. Then boom blam blam immediate danger is taken care of and i pull your arse to safety and its at that moment you realise were fighting the same fight dear brother :-) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2UB6nkHLc4&sns=em (thats me at 0:48)

I believe you will eventually discover we have much in common and although our doctrines and church history/interpretations differ we are all sinners fighting the same war.

As for the rest of you my brothers and sisters, you will see I talk from the heart. I am not an LDS powerhouse nor do I pretend to be, hell I'm not even a good Latter-Day Saint. Just a humble sinner striving everyday to follow my Saviours example. Although this wasn't always the case, I have developed a great love and respect for all religions, cultures and views.

Ok so now that the mushy stuff is out the way lets get down to business shall we? :)...

[humbled4444]

I visited the Mormon official site and Lord . . . the first question I asked myself is "who is the marketing company that designed this site."

In other words, the first time I visited the Mormon site . . . I'm holding my mouth and thinking "talk about window dressing."

Yes . . I found it very much a turn off.

Of course you do my friend, your presupposed biases and current suspicions will not allow you to entertain anything LDS at present :) This is understandable especially considering the anti-LDS sites you folks insist on visiting, exmormon.org, eeeeek. When I went through my inactive years I went to that site and was disgusted and shocked at the level of hate and negativity found there. They have no objectivity, they quote mine, take things out of context and they scour the deepest darkest places for anything they can use as ammunition against the church.

Or I'm over-thinking all of this and you simply dislike the site because your tastes differ from mine :)

[humbled4444]

The Kinderhook Plates (I'll throw some more in) The Spalding documents, The lost 116 pages and a few more all attempt to discredit Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. Most people when looking to discredit the church come across brother (RIP) and sister Tanners work - God bless them. They were both members of the church but left and became professional anti-Mormon activists.

A lot of the anti-Mormon literature discusses their "research".
Not to speak ill of the dead but their scholarly behavior and common courtesy leaves little to be desired and have received much criticism from secular historians. They purposely omit / avoid any evidence or sources that modify or refute their biased interpretation of Mormon history. Their claims have been answered over the years, please see the following responses issued by www.fairlds.org:

One explanation
http://www.fairlds.org/authors/misc/...derhook-plates

and another
http://en.fairmormon.org/Forgeries_r...derhook_Plates

I feel both of these responses (chosen out of many) provide a good critique for the charges levied against Joseph Smith. You are obviously free to weigh up the evidence for yourselves.

Also, I think people criticise Joseph Smith expecting him to be perfect. Did he make mistakes, of course - was he a little harsh and judgemental towards other religions, I would argue yes. Was the power, fame (within the LDS community anyway) too much for him to handle perhaps causing him to abuse his position and authority? Did he give into temptation and bring about Polygamy to allow easy access to those lovely young attractive LDS virgins? I don't know, but what I do know is even if he did it doesn't discredit the work he did earlier in his life. Like any man, he will be accountable for any wrong doings. Its between him and the Lord, its not our place to judge.

These are of course my thoughts / opinions on the matter not that of the LDS church or its members. I am simply stating he was a man and like all men he "could" have messed up. None of this however affects my testimony of the man or his work.

[OtherCheek]

Hey X!

There are several other threads on Tweb about the Kinderhook Plates. I'm very pleased you're getting a good response, because when we tried before, this was OC's initial response....

Xru has a more open mind than you do, or did, CP. He therefore deserves a little more time.

[Xru]

Everyone behaving?

If you wonder what I'm talking about read the OP.

This is more an educational thread than a debating thread.

No flaming . .. be nice.

LDS's are our Brothers/Sisters in Christ no matter how they came to that belief, ok.

[Cow Poke]

Everyone behaving?

If you wonder what I'm talking about read the OP.

This is more an educational thread than a debating thread.

No flaming . .. be nice.

LDS's are our Brothers/Sisters in Christ no matter how they came to that belief, ok.

In that last post, OC was being a poopie-head - he needs a time-out.

[Xru]

Hey X!

There are several other threads on Tweb about the Kinderhook Plates. I'm very pleased you're getting a good response, because when we tried before, this was OC's initial response....



You can click on the hyperlink in the quote above to see our previous discussions on this.

As you can see, there was quite a bit of confusion over this with, for example, Jo claiming Smith began translating, but was killed before he finished....



Then, almost immediately after....



So there is confusion, to be honest, whether he actually believed the plates were real, and started translating them, or never did anything with them ... and a lot of this comes from the Mormon's own records.

So, I hope you can see I'm still being nice --- I'm just providing EXACT QUOTES of what was said before. And if there's any question about CONTEXT, the hyperlinks are there to see exactly what was said before and after.

Ya CP

I get it you have ISSUES with OC. I think we ALL get it by now. So can we just move on past the CP vs. OC battle. Cause I hope you didn't come to this thead to do BATTLE did you. That is not the intention of this threat. Any BATTLES belong in another thread very far away from my thread.

Thank you for your co-operation

[Hamster]

My Orthodox friends, it seems to me (from your comments) that you just don't want to like our organisation :-) we are very likeable once you cut through the anti-LDS propaganda I promise.

I like plenty of Mormons on a personal level. Criticizing ideas isn't the same as hating the person who, for whatever reason, doesn't see it my way. As far as the actual church organization, what response can you expect from someone who thinks the Church perpetuates fraudulent blasphemy? Doesn't mean I don't acknowledge good things done by the church (e.g. charity) or that its members are well-meaning, but if we're right then it's hard to see the organization and its prophets as benign. I think that if the LDS were consistent they would feel the same way about orthomainstreamo Christian organizations

[Xru]

Not even with a FATMAX Marks-a-Lot?

927590_sk_lg.jpg

Okay okay.

Lets keep to the OP okay.

BTW, I'm reading my book on Palestinian sociology right now. When I come back I'm going to be looking to take names

[Cow Poke]

Okay okay.

Lets keep to the OP okay.

BTW, I'm reading my book on Palestinian sociology right now. When I come back I'm going to be looking to take names

so, you want ME to get back to the OP, but YOU can sidebar to Palestinian sociology?!?!?!

(kidding -- yessir - back to the OP)

[Cow Poke]

My Orthodox friends, it seems to me (from your comments) that you just don't want to like our organisation :-) we are very likeable once you cut through the anti-LDS propaganda I promise.

If I might EVER SO POLITELY suggest, Hum, for future reference, that "Orthodox" with a capital O refers to a specific segment of Christianity, and orthodox (small o) refers, in effect, to orthodox Christianity in general. A fine point, I admit, but we have some Orthodox Christians among us, as well as many orthodox Christians.

I believe the media and others have sadly done a great job in distorting the image and facts as well as creating a level of distrust and skepticism of our community. It is sad so many willingly just buy into it without finding out for themselves. If you wish to understand what we really believe, what our motives are and our views/interpretations are then Hello, my friend. Stay awhile and listen...

It is my prayer that as we fellowship and discuss issues and concerns you will come to the realisation that we are not enemies but rather allies.

We are certainly not enemies, Hum, but there are still some major theological differences that make "fellowship" a bit ... um... tenuous.

This particular paragraph has been customised for you dear Xru :)
I believe one day a terrible war will be fought between the forces of good and evil. Amoungst the bloodshed, the carnage, the sheer destruction and hate there you lie all bloodied and waiting for the end. You see your comrades lying dead all around you, you see the enemy approaching, you figure this is it the end. Then boom blam blam immediate danger is taken care of and i pull your arse to safety and its at that moment you realise were fighting the same fight dear brother :-) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2UB6nkHLc4&sns=em (thats me at 0:48)

I believe you will eventually discover we have much in common and although our doctrines and church history/interpretations differ we are all sinners fighting the same war.

As for the rest of you my brothers and sisters, you will see I talk from the heart. I am not an LDS powerhouse nor do I pretend to be, hell I'm not even a good Latter-Day Saint. Just a humble sinner striving everyday to follow my Saviours example. Although this wasn't always the case, I have developed a great love and respect for all religions, cultures and views.

Ok so now that the mushy stuff is out the way lets get down to business shall we? :)...

I love you, man! But, quite honestly, I wouldn't let you teach theology to my grandchildren. I believe we have some fundamental differences in beliefs that can't just be swept away so we can all worship together.