Joseph Smith and the sale of alcohol

[Cow Poke]

I was totally unaware, until another discussion with OC, that Joseph Smith owned a hotel - The Mansion House - in which, at least temporarily, a bar was set up to sell alcohol. OC is firm in pointing out, I believe, that the Word of Wisdom (how would you put it, OC?) "advised" against alcohol, but it was not a "commandment" not to drink.

Emma, quite obviously, was much opposed to the use of alcohol, and particularly concerned about a minister's involvement in the sale or use of spirits.

This information comes, as is my habit, NOT from "anti-Mormon sites", but from FairMormon.org.

FairMormon.org

The Mansion House

A bar was set up in Joseph's hotel, the Mansion house. Joseph Smith III tells of Emma's return from a journey to find the bar in place. As her biographers tell the story:

...Emma entered the main room of the Mansion House on April 24 [, 1843]. A bar, complete with counter, shelves, and glasses for serving liquor stood in the room. [Orin] Porter Rockwell reigned supreme over it. Emma sent her eleven-year-old son into a meeting to tell Joseph she wished to speak with him; she waited in the hall.

"Joseph, what is the meaning of that bar in this house?" Emma asked with restraint obvious to her young son, who later recorded the confrontation. Joseph explained that a new building across the street was planned for Porter Rockwell's bar and barbershop, but until it could be completed Rockwell had set up the bar in the Mansion. "How does it look for the spiritual head of a religious body to be keeping a hotel in which a room is fitted out as a liquor-selling establishment?" she asked earnestly. Joseph countered that all hotels had their bars, the arrangement was only temporary, and he wanted to make up for Rockwell's months in prison.

© source where applicable

First, I have to admit I was amused at "bar and barbershop". But, on a more serious note, I was really surprised with Smith's cavalier (IMO) attitude toward alcohol. As told by FairMormon, Emma was respectful in this, speaking "with obvious restraint".

She asked a very astute question -- "How does it look for the spiritual head of a religious body to be keeping a hotel in which a room is fitted out as a liquor-selling establishment?" To me, immediately the "abstain from the appearance of evil" scripture popped into mind.

Scripture Verse:

(1 Th 5:22 KJV) Abstain from all appearance of evil.

It is likely Emma had that in mind as well. (I'm guessing)

Smith's answer is interesting -- IN EFFECT, "well, everybody ELSE is doing it!" -- actual quote -- "Joseph countered that all hotels had their bars..."

FairMormon goes on to explain Emma's resolve to stand against alcohol...

FairMormon.org

Emma was not persuaded by this argument:

Unconvinced, Emma told Joseph he could hire someone to run the Mansion for him. "As for me," she continued, "I will take my children and go across to the old house and stay there, for I will not have them raised up under such conditions as this arrangement imposes upon us, nor have them mingle with the kind of men who frequent such a place. You are at liberty to make your choice; either that bar goes out of the house, or we will!"...

Joseph answered, "Very well, Emma; I will have it removed at once." Soon a frame structure, designed to house the bar and barbershop, began to rise across the street.

© source where applicable

I think Emma was exercising sound judgment, and Smith would have been wise to listen to her counsel.

My real question is --- were Mormon Twebbers aware that Smith was in the business of selling alcohol? Do you disagree with Emma that it "looks bad" for a minister to be in that business?

[humbled4444]

CP Said: I think Emma was exercising sound judgment, and Smith would have been wise to listen to her counsel.
Agreed, LDS men are taught to to heed the counsel of their wives(singular) and parents.

CP Said: My real question is --- were Mormon Twebbers aware that Smith was in the business of selling alcohol? Do you disagree with Emma that it "looks bad" for a minister to be in that business?
Yes, I had read about this before. No I do not disagree with Emma's counsel.

Joseph was obviously trying to help out Rockwell, who like you said, had been jailed for months and reached Nauvoo in financially desperate straits. Joseph hoped to find a trade for his old friend and bodyguard.

Joseph might have been blinded by his desire to help a friend but realised his error and resolved the situation.

Whilst I would side with Emma's position here I can understand Joseph Smiths position as well.

[OtherCheek]

My real question is --- were Mormon Twebbers aware that Smith was in the business of selling alcohol? Do you disagree with Emma that it "looks bad" for a minister to be in that business?

I would have to live in the 1840's to know "how bad it looked" to those people. CONTEXT, CP, CONTEXT.

Does it look bad that Baptist Ministers once consumed alcohol (before new policies were created to prohibit it's use among the clergy?)

[Cow Poke]

CP Said: I think Emma was exercising sound judgment, and Smith would have been wise to listen to her counsel.
Agreed, LDS men are taught to to heed the counsel of their wives(singular) and parents.

CP Said: My real question is --- were Mormon Twebbers aware that Smith was in the business of selling alcohol? Do you disagree with Emma that it "looks bad" for a minister to be in that business?
Yes, I had read about this before. No I do not disagree with Emma's counsel.

Your honesty and candor are refreshing!

Joseph was obviously trying to help out Rockwell, who like you said, had been jailed for months and reached Nauvoo in financially desperate straits. Joseph hoped to find a trade for his old friend and bodyguard.

Actually, I didn't say that. I quoted it. It is the "talking points" from FairMormon.

Joseph might have been blinded by his desire to help a friend but realised his error and resolved the situation.

In fact, I think it's WORSE for somebody, particularly "the spiritual head of a religious body", as Emma put it, to set somebody ELSE up like this. It's bad enough when we do things ourselves that demonstrate poor judgment, but to do this for somebody else demonstrates a HUGE lack of judgment.

He knew it was wrong, evidently, or he wouldn't have acquiesced so quickly to Emma's rebuke.

Whilst I would side with Emma's position here I can understand Joseph Smiths position as well.

It amazes me the extent to which Mormons will go, Hum, to give Smith a "free pass" on something like this. I don't believe there is any excuse whatsoever for "the spiritual head of a religious body" to materially assist somebody else in unscrupulous behavior.

To me, learning about Smith is like peeling an onion layer by layer, or, as your people say, "line upon line".

Brigham Young put it this way...

FairMormon.org

So we see that almost the very first teachings the first Elders of this Church received were as to what to eat, what to drink, and how to order their natural lives, that they might be united temporally as well as spiritually. This is the great purpose which God has in view in sending to the world, by His servants, the gospel of life and salvation. It will teach us how to deal, how to act in all things, and how to live with each other to become one in the Lord (italics added).

© source where applicable

Smith seemed to suffer from a severe lack of common sense and judgment. How does a "spiritual head of a religious body" get so far out of touch with God?

And, finally, I would not that, while Emma seemed to recognize Smith as "the the spiritual head of a religious body", it would be better said that Christ was the head, as is taught in the Bible.

[Cow Poke]

I would have to live in the 1840's to know "how bad it looked" to those people. CONTEXT, CP, CONTEXT.

Emma Smith DID, OC. There's your context. (You're really not very good at this "context" thing)

Does it look bad that Baptist Ministers once consumed alcohol (before the temperance movement came about?)

Yes, but what do you expect from a bunch of apostates.

[OtherCheek]

Emma Smith DID, OC. There's your context. (You're really not very good at this "context" thing)

Then it looked bad to Emma.

I didn't know you were addressing your question to Emma. I thought you were asking people alive today to consider your criticism. My bad.

Yes, but what do you expect from a bunch of apostates.

People in glass houses...

And I think you are being harsh to your own people, CP. CONTEXT is important here. So if you want to say "It looked bad to the temperance folks of that time" then you are on solid ground, but when you ask "Do the standards of the 19th Century look bad to people of the 21st Century, you are on shaky ground. IMO.

[One Bad Pig]

Interestingly, it wasn't until the 19th century that the mis-named "Temperance" movement kicked off - and even then, it was mostly an American Protestant phenomenon. Only Islam has a consistent record of condemning the consumption of alcohol. I wouldn't castigate Joseph Smith for the alcohol, but for his hypocrisy in selling it while condemning it.

[rogue06]

I remember reading about this elsewhere. IIRC the Mormons argued that beer and wine was more sanitary to drink than the local water (though I suppose it could be boiled) because Nauvoo was in a swampy low land.

[Cow Poke]

Interestingly, it wasn't until the 19th century that the mis-named "Temperance" movement kicked off - and even then, it was mostly an American Protestant phenomenon. Only Islam has a consistent record of condemning the consumption of alcohol. I wouldn't castigate Joseph Smith for the alcohol, but for his hypocrisy in selling it while condemning it.

That's exactly the point.

My sister dated - and almost married - a Muslim about 30 years ago. He ran a "smoke and spirits" outlet. When I asked him if it was not true that Muslims were against smoking and drinking, he replied, "If Americans are dumb enough to buy it, I am smart enough to sell it".

[Cow Poke]

Then it looked bad to Emma.

She had common sense and wisdom.

I didn't know you were addressing your question to Emma. I thought you were asking people alive today to consider your criticism. My bad.

Snarkiness noted, OC. Being dead, it's obvious she can't answer me, OC. I was quoting her assessment.

People in glass houses...

And I think you are being harsh to your own people, CP. CONTEXT is important here. So if you want to say "It looked bad to the temperance folks of that time" then you are on solid ground, but when you ask "Do the standards of the 19th Century look bad to people of the 21st Century, you are on shaky ground. IMO.

Ah, the redirection thing. "You guys did it, too". So, why did the Church need restored if your people wanted to be like everybody else?

[OtherCheek]

Interestingly, it wasn't until the 19th century that the mis-named "Temperance" movement kicked off - and even then, it was mostly an American Protestant phenomenon. Only Islam has a consistent record of condemning the consumption of alcohol. I wouldn't castigate Joseph Smith for the alcohol, but for his hypocrisy in selling it while condemning it.

Where did Joseph "condemn" the consumption of alcohol? Have you not been following the conversation? It was not given by commandment or constraint.

The only condemnation that has occurred here, is CP's condemnation of Joseph Smith.

[Cow Poke]

Where did Joseph "condemn" the consumption of alcohol? Have you not been following the conversation? It was not given by commandment or constraint.

The only condemnation that has occurred here, is CP's condemnation of Joseph Smith.

How bout turning the drama down just a bit, OC? We're just talking.

And I'm quoting DIRECTLY from FairMormon.

Here's a really simple question, OC, and PLEASE try to answer it directly, OK?

WAS Joseph Smith teaching (or did he ever teach) that alcohol should not be consumed by his followers?
And who wrote the "Word of Wisdom", anyway?

[One Bad Pig]

Where did Joseph "condemn" the consumption of alcohol? Have you not been following the conversation? It was not given by commandment or constraint.

The only condemnation that has occurred here, is CP's condemnation of Joseph Smith.

In my experience, Mormons rather tend to take the "Word of Wisdom" as a command, not simply good advice. And then there's the whole water instead of wine for communion thing, which seems to be related.

[OtherCheek]

In my experience, Mormons rather tend to take the "Word of Wisdom" as a command, not simply good advice.

Are you talking about Mormon living around 1840? Or Mormons living today?

And then there's the whole water instead of wine for communion thing, which seems to be related.

Yep. D&C 27 explains that.

[One Bad Pig]

Are you talking about Mormon living around 1840? Or Mormons living today?

Most of my knowledge is of Mormons living today. Why should Mormons living around 1840 have acted any differently?