Are we souls or are we machines?

[lilpixieofterror]

Well, not exactly. Circumstances of birth have ENABLED people to have profound religious experiences of all variety, and which variety they tend to have is highly correlated with the religion of the culture they were born into. Now, I suppose you could argue that Jim lucked out in being born into a culture whose religion he has taken to heart. OR, if one is from a different culture, one could regret how the accident of unfortunate parentage/local culture deprived Jim of the "one true religious experience", generally not available in his culture. And worse, has deluded Jim beyond all recognition, for his inadvertently having swallowed the codswallop that substitutes for True Faith in his benighted culture. Not his fault, of course, just an accident of geography, but LOOK what it's done to his mind!

So if you were born in Saudi, you'd be a Muslim. Well, I just disproved atheism, but using your same logic against you. This argument speaks nothing about the truthfulness or falseness of a belief, so get yourself better arguments, unless you want to admit atheism is false by the very same measure that is...

[Whag]

I love the stuffing words down my throat to make me say things I never said. Fun game, isn't it?

How is that stuffing words down your mouth? You did distinguish between the mental and physical (bold mine):

Yes it is Whag, when you are sick, do you suffer mentally too? I sure do and the same thing can be said if there is something mentally wrong, it will often start to take it's toll physically. It's pretty easy, if the hardware is damaged, the software can not work right and likewise, if the software is damaged, the hardware will not work right either.

What does the software represent? The mental? The mental is composed of physical structures and chemistry that compose personalities.

So I have to describe something in detail, or it doesn't happen or exist? Ok, I will work on that and you can explain how dark matter and dark energy works, deal? Of course, if PHD physicists whom study this stuff for a living can't really explain it, what luck is there for you?

Dark matter has been detected through remote sensing methods. Dark energy is just a bad analogy, since no scientist claims to know what it is but the effect of it on matter has been clearly measured and observed.

How this relates to dementia decimating my grandma's personality I have no idea. The brain is the seat of individuality and personality. If you get lobotomized, you'll no longer be adorably inquisitive and cantankerous lilpixie. You'll be a zombie.

[Whag]

Well, not exactly. Circumstances of birth have ENABLED people to have profound religious experiences of all variety, and which variety they tend to have is highly correlated with the religion of the culture they were born into. Now, I suppose you could argue that Jim lucked out in being born into a culture whose religion he has taken to heart. OR, if one is from a different culture, one could regret how the accident of unfortunate parentage/local culture deprived Jim of the "one true religious experience", generally not available in his culture. And worse, has deluded Jim beyond all recognition, for his inadvertently having swallowed the codswallop that substitutes for True Faith in his benighted culture. Not his fault, of course, just an accident of geography, but LOOK what it's done to his mind!

No, I don't think Jim would deny people in other cultures have profound religious experiences. Where he differs, and where Christianity as a whole appears to differ, is that these people can have a "proper" relationship with God.

I wonder what constitutes a proper relationship with God.

[lilpixieofterror]

How is that stuffing words down your mouth? You did distinguish between the mental and physical (bold mine):



What does the software represent? The mental? The mental is composed of physical structures and chemistry that compose personalities.

Yeah, one effects both. This isn't a hard concept to grasp, why do you find it so hard to figure out?

Dark matter has been detected through remote sensing methods. Dark energy is just a bad analogy, since no scientist claims to know what it is but the effect of it on matter has been clearly measured and observed.

Detecting it doesn't mean it's nature and how it works is understood. Knowing it is there and explaining why it is there and knowing how it does what it does are different things. Like I said, if you can explain how they work, call your local university and let the know. I'm sure they would be interested to hear all about it.

How this relates to dementia decimating my grandma's personality I have no idea. The brain is the seat of individuality and personality. If you get lobotomized, you'll no longer be adorably inquisitive and cantankerous lilpixie. You'll be a zombie.

Duh, the two are LINKED together, damage to the physical will effect the mental and issues with the mental, will effect the physical (I know experiments have shown that those that have happiness, for example, recover faster then those that don't, showing that your mental condition, will effect you physical well being) is there something about this you can't understand?

[Whag]

So if you were born in Saudi, you'd be a Muslim. Well, I just disproved atheism, but using your same logic against you. This argument speaks nothing about the truthfulness or falseness of a belief, so get yourself better arguments, unless you want to admit atheism is false by the very same measure that is...

No one said it does. We just inquiring about what constitutes a proper relationship with God. Given the cultural and geographic isolation that's inherent in the world, it's a strange claim to say only a specific religion can produce an authentic (i.e., not an improper) faith.

[lilpixieofterror]

No one said it does. We just inquiring about what constitutes a proper relationship with God. Given the cultural and geographic isolation that's inherent in the world, it's a strange claim to say only a specific religion can produce an authentic (i.e., not an improper) faith.

Whag, you are aware that most Christians tend to believe that God will judge you based upon your level of knowledge, right?

[Whag]

Yeah, one effects both. This isn't a hard concept to grasp, why do you find it so hard to figure out?

Again, the brain is physical. What the heck are you talking about "one effects the other"?

Detecting it doesn't mean it's nature and how it works is understood. Knowing it is there and explaining why it is there and knowing how it does what it does are different things. Like I said, if you can explain how they work, call your local university and let the know. I'm sure they would be interested to hear all about it.

Notice they don't make claims about causality when they don't have the data. Yet here you are saying the immaterial affects the material.

Duh, the two are LINKED together, damage to the physical will effect the mental and issues with the mental, will effect the physical (I know experiments have shown that those that have happiness, for example, recover faster then those that don't, showing that your mental condition, will effect you physical well being) is there something about this you can't understand?

Is there something about the brain being a physical organ that's connected to the other organs you don't understand?

You're trying to pass off mental as immaterial. What's your specific point about my grandma? Dementia took her personality. Where does the "immaterial" come into play here?

[Whag]

Whag, you are aware that most Christians tend to believe that God will judge you based upon your level of knowledge, right?

Absolutely. That is precisely how judgment should work. No human sacrifice is required, all things being equal.

[lilpixieofterror]

Again, the brain is physical. What the heck are you talking about "one effects the other"?

Yes it is, we've established that. Now your point is....

Notice they don't make claims about causality when they don't have the data. Yet here you are saying the immaterial affects the material.

Nice back peddle, but you seem to be good at missing the point. If we struggle to understand the nature of things we can physically detect and know for a fact are there, how much harder would it be to describe the nature something we can not see or detect? You're the one that wants to argue in this direction, not happy where this is leading? Anyway, yes, they do make quite a few claims or have you never heard of 'theoretical physics'?

Is there something about the brain being a physical organ that's connected to the other organs you don't understand?

I do, but you can't show where i disputed this, can you? Nah, instead you're doing what many atheist tend to do.

You're trying to pass off mental as immaterial. What's your specific point about my grandma? Dementia took her personality. Where does the "immaterial" come into play here?

Yeah, the physical was damaged, are you having a hard time understanding what I have said? Assume the immateral does exist, now assume they are linked together, now assume that the physical is damaged, if that is so, will that cause problems with the immateral? Yes, this is pretty basic stuff that people have debated for centuries Whag and I am well aware of how brain damage affects people, that doesn't prove what you think it proves though.

[lilpixieofterror]

Absolutely. That is precisely how judgment should work. No human sacrifice is required, all things being equal.

Whag, does justice need to be served? We are all sinners, according to Christian belief, so the price of sin has to be paid and can only be paid by one who is sinless, but who is sinless but God and how can the always existing die? Thus, we find our salvation in Jesus, one who was all human and all God, that is the only way the price of justice can be paid and mercy can also be given.

[Whag]

Yeah, the physical was damaged, are you having a hard time understanding what I have said? Assume the immateral does exist, now assume they are linked together, now assume that the physical is damaged, if that is so, will that cause problems with the immateral? Yes, this is pretty basic stuff that people have debated for centuries Whag and I am well aware of how brain damage affects people, that doesn't prove what you think it proves though.

When you say the "immaterial" was affected, I have no clue what you're talking about. In the context of my specific grandma, what do you mean by "immaterial" and how was it affected?

[Whag]

Whag, does justice need to be served?

Lol. You sound like Buford Pusser.

We are all sinners, according to Christian belief, so the price of sin has to be paid and can only be paid by one who is sinless, but who is sinless but God and how can the always existing die? Thus, we find our salvation in Jesus, one who was all human and all God, that is the only way the price of justice can be paid and mercy can also be given.

If Jesus sinned once, would that have been the end of it? Was there a backup plan in case that happened?

[phank]

No, I don't think Jim would deny people in other cultures have profound religious experiences. Where he differs, and where Christianity as a whole appears to differ, is that these people can have a "proper" relationship with God.

It's probably the case that adherents of other faiths consider that Christians have an improper relationship with what Christians think is a god.

I wonder what constitutes a proper relationship with God.

Well, this is counting angels on pinheads. To paraphrase the famous recipe for rabbit stew, first catch an angel! I personally have never been able to tell which of the many gods people have believed in, if any, are the appropriate one(s) to have a relationship with. Ask a believer, and he says "mine, of course".

(And incidentally, "dark matter" isn't really considered a "thing". Instead, it is a LABEL given to a set of anomalous observations. Galactic motions we observe are explainable most easily by modeling a broad source of gravity in their vicinity. The best example of this is a collision between galaxies. Observations like that allow us to map the distributions and intensities of the hypothetical gravitational field. Now, what is generating that field (if indeed that's what's happening) is speculative. I'm hoping it's something altogether outside our experience.)

[lilpixieofterror]

When you say the "immaterial" was affected, I have no clue what you're talking about. In the context of my specific grandma, what do you mean by "immaterial" and how was it affected?

Do I really need to spell this out? Anyway, it depends upon your view of how these things work. Do you believe that the mind/spirit are both immateral or do you believe they are different? If you believe the mind is immateral and linked or is the spirit, there is a belief that if you receive brain damage, it will affect the spirit's ability to work within the body. Likewise, there is another view that the mind, body, and spirit are three different things that may balance or do not balance between one another. Anyway, the argument I would make is how does brain damage affecting personality prove there is no spirit when one takes the view that the material and immateral are linked together?

[Michelle]

Thank you for your response, phank

Currently, they are hypothetical, of course. What's being said is that high-level behaviors derive from low-level patterns of neural activity. A growing body of experimental evidence indicates that such patterns, and the dynamics of those patterns, are sufficient to explain what consciousness seems like to itself.

I understood everything until I got to the phrase...."are suffcient to explain what consciousness seems like to itself." (Actually, I understand "are sufficient" just fine and find it an interesting concept.) How does consciousness self-evaluate?

What I don't understand is the apparent need on the part of some people for something undefinable, undetectable, and untestable outside of neural activity. I'm guessing that fear of death and the desire to live indefinitely underlie this need. But that's just a guess.

Thanks for admitting that your conjectures are just guesses. I appreciate the candor.