The Koran on lewdness - thoughs?

[penguinfan]

The Koran has a specific punishment for lewdness (for women) in verse 4:15:

As for those of your women who are guilty of lewdness, call to witness four of you against them. And if they testify (to the truth of the allegation) then confine them to the houses until death take them or (until) Allah appoint for them a way.

Waallatee ya/teena alfahishata min nisa-ikum faistashhidoo AAalayhinna arbaAAatan minkum fa-in shahidoo faamsikoohunna fee albuyooti hatta yatawaffahunna almawtu aw yajAAala Allahu lahunna sabeelan

Women found guilty of lewdness are permanently confined to their homes.

However, the Koran says slave wives found guilty of the same crime (lewdness) should receive 'half the punishment prescribed':

4:25 - And if when they are honourably married they commit lewdness they shall incur the half of the punishment (prescribed) for free women (in that case).

Waman lam yastatiAA minkum tawlan an yankiha almuhsanati almu/minati famin ma malakat aymanukum min fatayatikumu almu/minati waAllahu aAAlamu bi-eemanikum baAAdukum min baAAdin fainkihoohunna bi-ithni ahlihinna waatoohunna ojoorahunna bialmaAAroofi muhsanatin ghayra masafihatin wala muttakhithati akhdanin fa-itha ohsinna fa-in atayna bifahishatin faAAalayhinna nisfu ma AAala almuhsanati mina alAAathabi thalika liman khashiya alAAanata minkum waan tasbiroo khayrun lakum waAllahu ghafoorun raheemun

And Muhammad's wives found guilty of lewdness shall receive double the punishment prescribed for lewdness:

Koran 33:30 - O ye wives of the Prophet! Whosoever of you committeth manifest lewdness, the punishment for her will be doubled, and that is easy for Allah.

Ya nisaa alnnabiyyi man ya/ti minkunna bifahishatin mubayyinatin yudaAAaf laha alAAathabu diAAfayni wakana thalika AAala Allahi yaseeran

Logically, you can't halve or double permanent home confinement. So, the punishment for lewdness in the last two verses dealing with slave wives and Muhammad's wives the Koran says it has already prescribed must have been abrogated with another verse that has also been prescribed. This prescribed punishment would have to be one that can, of course, be halved or doubled, such as lashing.

Is this not a clear proof that verses of the Koran have been abrogated? How do you halve or double permanent home confinement, otherwise?

[Cerebrum123]

The Koran has a specific punishment for lewdness (for women) in verse 4:15:



Women found guilty of lewdness are permanently confined to their homes.

However, the Koran says slave wives found guilty of the same crime (lewdness) should receive 'half the punishment prescribed':



And Muhammad's wives found guilty of lewdness shall receive double the punishment prescribed for lewdness:



Logically, you can't halve or double permanent home confinement. So, the punishment for lewdness in the last two verses dealing with slave wives and Muhammad's wives the Koran says it has already prescribed must have been abrogated with another verse that has also been prescribed. This prescribed punishment would have to be one that can, of course, be halved or doubled, such as lashing.

Is this not a clear proof that verses of the Koran have been abrogated? How do you halve or double permanent home confinement, otherwise?

Thanks for bringing up an excellent point. I do seem to remember something about lashing being a punishment for "lewdness", but I think it was applied only to men in that verse. It's highly possible that it was originally for both men and women, but later abrogated. Abrogation is common in the Quran, and is just another reminder that these verses come from the mind of man, and not "Allah". Also considering that the verse that prescribed the punishment of stoning (for adulterers I believe) was eaten by a goat, according to Islamic tradition (for those not better acquainted with this subject, they are referred to as the Hadith, or ahadith). Here are a few verses promoting abrogation.

And for whatever verse (ayatin) We abrogate or cast into oblivion, We bring a better or the like of it; knowest thou not that God is powerful over everything? S. 2:106 Arberry

Allah makes to pass away and establishes what He pleases, and with Him is the basis of the Book. S. 13:39 Shakir

And when We exchange a verse (ayatan) in the place of another verse (ayatin) and God knows very well what He is sending down -- they say, ‘Thou art a mere forger!’ Nay, but the most of them have no knowledge. S. 16:101 Shakir

Looks like even Mohammed realized that changing his teachings all of the time would result in people accusing him of forgery. If you want more information on abrogation in the Quran, I know a good source, but as that isn't the topic of this thread, I will leave it up to you to send a request via pm.

[amigoxp]

first we have see that if you punish a woman for lewdness then they have to produce 4 witness. it is rational enogh. why dont we see how bible treats women
1.MENSES - Leviticus 15:19-30 -
if a woman having menstruation bibles says to not to touch her becoz she is unclean, who ever she touches become unclean, where she goes or whatever she touches become unclean. is this the respect bible gives to women?

2. POSTPARTUM IN THE BIBLE - [Levi. 12:2]
If a woman conceives, and bears a MALE CHILD, then she shall be unclean seven days.. But if she bears a FEMALE CHILD then she shall be unclean two weeks.

3. VEIL - [1 Corin. 11:5]
But any woman who prays and prophecies with her head unveiled dishonors her head - it is the same as if her head were shaven, for if a woman will not veil herself then she should cut off her hair. But if it is disgraceful for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her wear a veil. JUDGE FOR YOURSELVES; is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? (It seems that Christians are unaware of the obligation of the veil in the Bible, which made me put their verses in this book, and for those who attack the veil in Islam should notice these verses of their own Bible, and notice also this verse "Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get.)

4.WOMAN IS NOT THE GLORY OF GOD - [1 Corin. 11:7]
For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man, for man was not made for woman, but woman from man, neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.

5. REMAIN SILENCE!- [1 Tim 2:11-14]
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

6. SILENCE IN CHURCHES - [1 Corin 14:34]
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to
speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

7. WOMAN IS EVIL ! [Zech. 5:7]
The leaden cover was lifted, there was a woman sitting, and he (the angel) said: this is wickedness.

8. HIDE WOMAN'S VOICE ! - [1 Corin. 14:34]
The woman should keep silence in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. If there is any thing they desire to know let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.

[1 Timo. 2:9]
Woman should adorn themselves modestly and sensibly in seemly apparel, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly attire but by good deeds.

9. WOMAN FOR THE MAN - [1 Corin 11:5-10]
But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovereddishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered. For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels."

10- HOW TO RESCUE HER HUSBAND - [Deut. 25:11]
When men fight with one another, and the wife of the one draws near to rescue her husband from the hand of him who is beating him, and puts out her hand seizes him by the private parts, then you shall cut off her hand; your eye shall have not pity.

11. MARRIAGE BY FORCE !! [Deut. 25:5]
If brothers dwell together, and one of them dies and has no son, the wife of the dead shall not be marries outside of the family to a stranger; her husband's brother shall go into her, and take her as his wife.

12.WHAT IF HE REFUSES ? [Deut. 25:7]
And if the man does not wish to take his brother's wife then his brother's wife shall go up to the gate of the elders, and say, "My husband's brother refuses to perpetuate his brother's name in Israel.. Then the elders of his city shall call him.

And if he persists.. Then his brother's wife shall go up to him in the presence of the elders, and pull his sandal off his foot, and spit in his face; and shall answer and say: So it shall be done to the man who does not build up his brother's house. And the name of his house shall be called in Israel THE HOUSE OF HIM THAT HAD HIS SANDAL PULLED OFF.

13. UPRIGHT WOMEN! - [Eccless 7:26-28]
And I find more bitter than death the woman who is a snare, whose heart is a trap and whose hands are chains. The man who pleases God will escape her, but the sinner she will ensnare....while I was still searching but not finding, I found one upright man among a thousand but not one upright woman among them all".

14. KILL WOMEN, CHILDREN, ANIMALS !!

[Ezek. 9:5]
And the Lord said, "Go through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have you pity. SLAY UTTERLY OLD AND YOUNG, BOTH MAIDS AND LITTLE CHILDREN, AND WOMEN.
[Num. 31:1]
And the Lord said unto Moses, "Avenge the children of the Mid'-an'ites.. They warred against the Mid'-i-an'ites, as the Lord commanded Moses, and they slay all the males. And they took all women as captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods. And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.

Moses said, "HAVE YOU SAVED ALL THE WOMEN ALIVE? NOW KILL EVERY MALE AMONG THE LITTLE ONES, AND KILL EVERY WOMAN that has known a man by lying with him, but all the young girls who have not known a man by lying with him keep alive for yourselves.

[Josh 6:16]
Joshua said to the people of Israel, "The Lord has given you the city (of the Canaanites).. all silver, and gold, and vessels of brass and iron, are consecrated unto the Lord: They shall come into the treasury of the Lord. The people utterly DESTROYED ALL THAT WAS IN THE CITY, BOTH MAN AND WOMAN, YOUNG AND OLD, AND OX AND SHEEP, AND ASS, WITH THE EDGE OF THE SWORD.

In other words, the Bible teaches us that:

1.Women should learn in silence and subjugation.
2.Women should not teach.
3.Women should not have authority over men but should remain silent.
4.Adam and Eve were not equal in sin. Adam was not deceived but Eve was.
5.Women are commanded to be under obedience to men. God ordained that men shall for all time rule over women
6.Women must keep silent in Churches. It is shameful for them to open their mouths therein. If they have a question they should ask their husbands before going to church and then their husbands will ask for them in the church.
7.A woman should neither pray nor profess with her head uncovered.
8.If a woman prays with her head uncoveredthen she might as well shave her head.
9.Man was created in the image and glory of God, and Woman was created in the glory of Man, thus Man must have power over her.
10.Any woman who delivers a male baby shall be unclean for one week. But any woman who delivers a female baby shall be unclean for TWO weeks. Thus, females make their mothers DOUBLY unclean as compared to males.
11.While it is possible to find one upright man in every thousand, it is impossible to find even one single upright woman in every thousand
12.Woman is a snare, her heart is a trap, and her hands are chains. The man who pleases God will escape her, but she will ensnare the sinner.
13.If a woman had her period and touches a chair or a bed or anything else then that item immediately becomes unclean. Anyone who then touches those things shall also become unclean. They must then bathe themselves and wash their clothes because they have touched an item that a menstruous woman has touched.

Champions of women freedom fighters ( christians) , please explain us what you bible is trying to say..

[Cerebrum123]

first we have see that if you punish a woman for lewdness then they have to produce 4 witness. it is rational enogh. why dont we see how bible treats women
1.MENSES - Leviticus 15:19-30 -
if a woman having menstruation bibles says to not to touch her becoz she is unclean, who ever she touches become unclean, where she goes or whatever she touches become unclean. is this the respect bible gives to women?

2. POSTPARTUM IN THE BIBLE - [Levi. 12:2]
If a woman conceives, and bears a MALE CHILD, then she shall be unclean seven days.. But if she bears a FEMALE CHILD then she shall be unclean two weeks.

3. VEIL - [1 Corin. 11:5]
But any woman who prays and prophecies with her head unveiled dishonors her head - it is the same as if her head were shaven, for if a woman will not veil herself then she should cut off her hair. But if it is disgraceful for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her wear a veil. JUDGE FOR YOURSELVES; is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? (It seems that Christians are unaware of the obligation of the veil in the Bible, which made me put their verses in this book, and for those who attack the veil in Islam should notice these verses of their own Bible, and notice also this verse "Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get.)

4.WOMAN IS NOT THE GLORY OF GOD - [1 Corin. 11:7]
For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man, for man was not made for woman, but woman from man, neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.

5. REMAIN SILENCE!- [1 Tim 2:11-14]
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

6. SILENCE IN CHURCHES - [1 Corin 14:34]
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to
speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

7. WOMAN IS EVIL ! [Zech. 5:7]
The leaden cover was lifted, there was a woman sitting, and he (the angel) said: this is wickedness.

8. HIDE WOMAN'S VOICE ! - [1 Corin. 14:34]
The woman should keep silence in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. If there is any thing they desire to know let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.

[1 Timo. 2:9]
Woman should adorn themselves modestly and sensibly in seemly apparel, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly attire but by good deeds.

9. WOMAN FOR THE MAN - [1 Corin 11:5-10]
But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovereddishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered. For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels."

10- HOW TO RESCUE HER HUSBAND - [Deut. 25:11]
When men fight with one another, and the wife of the one draws near to rescue her husband from the hand of him who is beating him, and puts out her hand seizes him by the private parts, then you shall cut off her hand; your eye shall have not pity.

11. MARRIAGE BY FORCE !! [Deut. 25:5]
If brothers dwell together, and one of them dies and has no son, the wife of the dead shall not be marries outside of the family to a stranger; her husband's brother shall go into her, and take her as his wife.

12.WHAT IF HE REFUSES ? [Deut. 25:7]
And if the man does not wish to take his brother's wife then his brother's wife shall go up to the gate of the elders, and say, "My husband's brother refuses to perpetuate his brother's name in Israel.. Then the elders of his city shall call him.

And if he persists.. Then his brother's wife shall go up to him in the presence of the elders, and pull his sandal off his foot, and spit in his face; and shall answer and say: So it shall be done to the man who does not build up his brother's house. And the name of his house shall be called in Israel THE HOUSE OF HIM THAT HAD HIS SANDAL PULLED OFF.

13. UPRIGHT WOMEN! - [Eccless 7:26-28]
And I find more bitter than death the woman who is a snare, whose heart is a trap and whose hands are chains. The man who pleases God will escape her, but the sinner she will ensnare....while I was still searching but not finding, I found one upright man among a thousand but not one upright woman among them all".

14. KILL WOMEN, CHILDREN, ANIMALS !!

[Ezek. 9:5]
And the Lord said, "Go through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have you pity. SLAY UTTERLY OLD AND YOUNG, BOTH MAIDS AND LITTLE CHILDREN, AND WOMEN.
[Num. 31:1]
And the Lord said unto Moses, "Avenge the children of the Mid'-an'ites.. They warred against the Mid'-i-an'ites, as the Lord commanded Moses, and they slay all the males. And they took all women as captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods. And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.

Moses said, "HAVE YOU SAVED ALL THE WOMEN ALIVE? NOW KILL EVERY MALE AMONG THE LITTLE ONES, AND KILL EVERY WOMAN that has known a man by lying with him, but all the young girls who have not known a man by lying with him keep alive for yourselves.

[Josh 6:16]
Joshua said to the people of Israel, "The Lord has given you the city (of the Canaanites).. all silver, and gold, and vessels of brass and iron, are consecrated unto the Lord: They shall come into the treasury of the Lord. The people utterly DESTROYED ALL THAT WAS IN THE CITY, BOTH MAN AND WOMAN, YOUNG AND OLD, AND OX AND SHEEP, AND ASS, WITH THE EDGE OF THE SWORD.

In other words, the Bible teaches us that:

1.Women should learn in silence and subjugation.
2.Women should not teach.
3.Women should not have authority over men but should remain silent.
4.Adam and Eve were not equal in sin. Adam was not deceived but Eve was.
5.Women are commanded to be under obedience to men. God ordained that men shall for all time rule over women
6.Women must keep silent in Churches. It is shameful for them to open their mouths therein. If they have a question they should ask their husbands before going to church and then their husbands will ask for them in the church.
7.A woman should neither pray nor profess with her head uncovered.
8.If a woman prays with her head uncoveredthen she might as well shave her head.
9.Man was created in the image and glory of God, and Woman was created in the glory of Man, thus Man must have power over her.
10.Any woman who delivers a male baby shall be unclean for one week. But any woman who delivers a female baby shall be unclean for TWO weeks. Thus, females make their mothers DOUBLY unclean as compared to males.
11.While it is possible to find one upright man in every thousand, it is impossible to find even one single upright woman in every thousand
12.Woman is a snare, her heart is a trap, and her hands are chains. The man who pleases God will escape her, but she will ensnare the sinner.
13.If a woman had her period and touches a chair or a bed or anything else then that item immediately becomes unclean. Anyone who then touches those things shall also become unclean. They must then bathe themselves and wash their clothes because they have touched an item that a menstruous woman has touched.

Champions of women freedom fighters ( christians) , please explain us what you bible is trying to say..

Ok, I will do my best to answer, but I think it would be better for you to look at sites like tektonics.org as they have written responses to all of the above, and they are probably more coherent than I am.
These are in the order you have them at the top, through Bible references.
Topic 1: You do realize that men were also made unclean by things like nocturnal emission right? Since both of these are about ritual cleanliness, and are things which neither can control, I would say it's about fair(other types of emission also make a man unclean).
Topic 2: Considering that there were certain ceremonies(circumcision) that had to be done 7 days after a male child was born, and a woman would want to be there for them, this makes sense. Also since the girl child doesn't have these ceremonies, then wouldn't it be best for the mother to be able to stay home and rest while taking care of the child?
Topic 3: This type of veil was specific to a certain time and culture, and in this culture women who weren't wearing the veil were predominantly prostitutes(many of them temple prostitutes for the various pagan religions).
Topic 4: Look at the whole context of a verse before you start making accusations, 1 Corinthians 11:7 A man ought not to cover his head,[b] since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9 neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10 It is for this reason that a woman ought to have authority over her own[c] head, because of the angels. 11 Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. 12 For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God.

13 Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14 Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, 15 but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering. 16 If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice—nor do the churches of God.

Notice the last few verses, and that long hair alone can count as the covering, also this applies in the different time and culture context.
Topic 5 and 6: Ok the first one has to do with Paul referencing the things being taught that he was trying to oppose, not his actual opinion, and for the next one, ANY person was supposed to remain silent during a teaching lesson. This is just how it was done back then, but apparently some people weren't following those rules of respect, and they needed correction.
Topic 7: This is a prophecy a vision in Zechariah, and it's also prophetic. These things are highly symbolic. He's not saying here that real women are representatives of wickedness. Perhaps you should look at some of the things in Revelation, and how it has similar symbolic imagery.
Topic 8: This is the same as topic 6(that was a mistake to repeat the same verse twice, right?.
Topic 9: Same as topic 5 (do you always repeat yourself this much in single posts?)
Topic 10: You do know that this is talking about permanent damage being done to the man, right? I have a better explanation here http://www.tektonics.org/tsr/till02.html
Topic 11: This is called levirate marriage, and was quite common in the ANE culture. This was done so that the man who died would have an heir to both his name, and his property. Also it's not forced, the man has a way out, but it ends in dishonor, something that would be avoided at almost any cost in an honor/shame society, which is what ancient Israel was.
Topic 12: Same as topic 11, but if you want more information, just search levirate marriage at the tektonics.org site.
Topic 13: This passage is talking about adulterous women, and not women in general. Notice that it's talking about women who are a snare in the passage. Also, have you ever heard of "hyperbole"? Again, you should learn a little more about the subject before making accusations. In an earlier verse in the same chapter it talks about how a good name is better than fine perfume, and that it is better to go to a house of mourning than a house of feasting. It also says that a day of death is better than a day of birth. Doesn't that sound a little extreme to you? Solomon(he wrote Ecclesiastes) ended up doing some really stupid things because of his many wives, and his experience in this matter is what most likely led him to make such extreme statements.
Topic 14: This is dealing with the wars that Israel was involved in, and the orders that were set up before hand. These people weren't innocent victims of an unfair God, and were often the aggressors. The few times that they were not the aggressors, they were involved in things like child sacrifice, and other horrible atrocities.

Your objections have been refuted long ago, and by people who are far better at this than I am, and I give a link to one of them. I would recommend christianthinktank.com as another source for answers on these questions, just in case you felt my answers weren't detailed enough(or in case you didn't quite understand them, I don't always get the message I am trying to send through as clear as they will).

EDIT: Actually the four witnesses it only when a woman has to prove that she has been raped, and not the way you mentioned above, so no it's not reasonable.

[lilpixieofterror]

Hello Amigoxp, I was browsing though tWeb and found your comments quite amusing, so let me correct many of your errors, ok?

first we have see that if you punish a woman for lewdness then they have to produce 4 witness. it is rational enogh. why dont we see how bible treats women
1.MENSES - Leviticus 15:19-30 -
if a woman having menstruation bibles says to not to touch her becoz she is unclean, who ever she touches become unclean, where she goes or whatever she touches become unclean. is this the respect bible gives to women?

And in a time where disease control and hygiene practices war spartan (to say the least), it made perfect sense to keep women currently under her menstruation cycle from the rest of the population. The best they had was basically a rag (or a cloth) to catch some of the blood with and it was quite messy now fast forward to 2012, we have all kinds of products that simply make this practice un-needed. Sorry dear, the Bible was written to the people of 3,000 years ago, not 2012.

2. POSTPARTUM IN THE BIBLE - [Levi. 12:2]
If a woman conceives, and bears a MALE CHILD, then she shall be unclean seven days.. But if she bears a FEMALE CHILD then she shall be unclean two weeks.

A time for a mother to bond with her daughter. Really, do you not bother to read before you say such stupid things?

3. VEIL - [1 Corin. 11:5]
But any woman who prays and prophecies with her head unveiled dishonors her head - it is the same as if her head were shaven, for if a woman will not veil herself then she should cut off her hair. But if it is disgraceful for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her wear a veil. JUDGE FOR YOURSELVES; is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? (It seems that Christians are unaware of the obligation of the veil in the Bible, which made me put their verses in this book, and for those who attack the veil in Islam should notice these verses of their own Bible, and notice also this verse "Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get.)

Yawn, another stale canard that is produced by the old 'plain reading of the text' stupidity for you see:

"head" does NOT mean the same thing we mean by it in Western culture. From the standpoint of anatomical function, in Paul's day it was the 'heart' that made the decisions, guided life, etc. "Head" was much more the 'adornment department' of the body! In other words, when people wanted to make decisions, they used their heart; when they wanted to get all "gussied up" ["dressed up", for you colloquially-deprived readers ;>) ], they used their head (e.g. hair, makeup, jewelry). So, in the literature, the word translated 'head' here often shows up as 'crown' or 'excellence'. [Hence, its usefulness in the passage of I Cor 11.]
http://christianthinktank.com/fem09.html

Again, pretending their culture is the same as ours is plain dumb.

4.WOMAN IS NOT THE GLORY OF GOD - [1 Corin. 11:7]
For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man, for man was not made for woman, but woman from man, neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.

Yawn... already answered above, you're wrong again:

5. REMAIN SILENCE!- [1 Tim 2:11-14]
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Wrong again:

Now, if we try to peace this together, certain things seem to emerge:

There were false teachers, at least one of whom must have been a woman, that taught a reverse-bible story about adam/eve.

These teachers argued for their position that women preceded men, and also did not suffer from 'deception'.

They therefore would have claimed to be a source of 'purer' revelation than the apostolic circle and the OT scripture (a standard "Gnostic" claim).

Paul deals with this situation (1) defensively first--TEACH the women the Word; and (2) offensively--Forbid these false women teachers (also characterized by immodesty, pomp, and bragging of godliness) to teach/proclaim this doctrine, and make sure they take their place in the 'classroom' with the other people being discipled according to the Word.
http://christianthinktank.com/fem09.html

This was directed at false women teachers that were teaching false doctrines. Yet again you swing and strike out, but it seems you still don't know how to keep quiet and say more dumb stuff like this:

6. SILENCE IN CHURCHES - [1 Corin 14:34]
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to
speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

I wrote an article on this years ago and found that Paul was stating a position that some people in Corinth held to and then moving on to refute that position. This one is yet another dead issue...

7. WOMAN IS EVIL ! [Zech. 5:7]
The leaden cover was lifted, there was a woman sitting, and he (the angel) said: this is wickedness.

Nevermind the fact that verse 9 says:

"Then I looked up—and there before me were two women, with the wind in their wings! They had wings like those of a stork, and they lifted up the basket between heaven and earth."

Sounds like an out of context fallacy to me. How funny.

8. HIDE WOMAN'S VOICE ! - [1 Corin. 14:34]
The woman should keep silence in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. If there is any thing they desire to know let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.

I wrote an article on this issue too. In short Paul is quoting a position that people in Corinth held to and then going on to refute it. Again, it really does a lot of good not to pretend that the Bible was written to you personally.

[1 Timo. 2:9]
Woman should adorn themselves modestly and sensibly in seemly apparel, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly attire but by good deeds.

You do know that this is talking about church and not dressing up to distract from what is being taught, right?

9. WOMAN FOR THE MAN - [1 Corin 11:5-10]
But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovereddishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered. For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels."

Already addressed above. The head has a different context then modern context do and this is pretty rich, since women still cover their heads in the middle east in a predominately Islam culture to this day.

10- HOW TO RESCUE HER HUSBAND - [Deut. 25:11]
When men fight with one another, and the wife of the one draws near to rescue her husband from the hand of him who is beating him, and puts out her hand seizes him by the private parts, then you shall cut off her hand; your eye shall have not pity.

Context is the key my dear, what do you think the reason for this was?

11. MARRIAGE BY FORCE !! [Deut. 25:5]
If brothers dwell together, and one of them dies and has no son, the wife of the dead shall not be marries outside of the family to a stranger; her husband's brother shall go into her, and take her as his wife.

This is a custom that was held by the people of the era. IT was a way to keep the inheritance of the family within the family and prevent it from being spread too thin. Again their culture is not the culture of 2012 because today, we don't work the same way so this law also doesn't apply to us.

12.WHAT IF HE REFUSES ? [Deut. 25:7]
And if the man does not wish to take his brother's wife then his brother's wife shall go up to the gate of the elders, and say, "My husband's brother refuses to perpetuate his brother's name in Israel.. Then the elders of his city shall call him.

And if he persists.. Then his brother's wife shall go up to him in the presence of the elders, and pull his sandal off his foot, and spit in his face; and shall answer and say: So it shall be done to the man who does not build up his brother's house. And the name of his house shall be called in Israel THE HOUSE OF HIM THAT HAD HIS SANDAL PULLED OFF.

Yawn yet again:

Observations: The removal of the sandal signified the transfer of inheritance rights to someone else (cf. Ruth 4.7-8). The expected future for a widow was to marry the brother (under Levirite law) and have a kid to pass the inheritance on to. In the case of a non-compliant brother (as in the case above), the widow BECAME the owner of the inheritance (like Naomi). This transfer of property was done at the city gates, indicating that a widow was a full legal agent in these types of transactions, and could 'force the issue' at will. http://christianthinktank.com/fem02b.html

Their culture is no 2012, so stop pretending that it is.

13. UPRIGHT WOMEN! - [Eccless 7:26-28]
And I find more bitter than death the woman who is a snare, whose heart is a trap and whose hands are chains. The man who pleases God will escape her, but the sinner she will ensnare....while I was still searching but not finding, I found one upright man among a thousand but not one upright woman among them all".

So the author of a book designed to show about the sadness and hopelessness of a person in a faith crisis can not state how hard it is to find a good women for him? I've heard both men and women saying things like, "All the good men/women are taken." I guess that means they are now sexist too? Yeah... that makes sense...

[box]14. KILL WOMEN, CHILDREN, ANIMALS !![/quote]

Sorry, not interested in running down this rabbit trail, but I know both JPH and Glen Miller have article on these issues too that I doubt you will read cause they will destroy your delusions.

In other words, the Bible teaches us that:

Nah, you've actually exposed you're an idiot, but it's ok, many people think the 'plain reading of the text' should be the proper way the Bible is to be read.

1.Women should learn in silence and subjugation.

Just like men in the 1st century were also suppose to learn while others were saying women should not learn, Paul was saying they should learn the same way men do. In other words, you don't know what you're talking about.

2.Women should not teach.

Nope, some ignorant women that Paul was specifically talking about should learn before they speak.

3.Women should not have authority over men but should remain silent.

Given with the context above, that is outright wrong. Paul as addressing specific situations and was not addressing universals and it sounds like good advice. Listen to what the teacher is telling you before you pipe up. Sounds like solid advice that many people today need to learn.

4.Adam and Eve were not equal in sin. Adam was not deceived but Eve was.

Already covered above, Paul was addressing specific women that were teaching false things and Paul was reminding Timothy of something very important. In other words, you are reading the Bible like a fundy.

5.Women are commanded to be under obedience to men. God ordained that men shall for all time rule over women

Out of context, Paul specifically tells husbands and wives to submit to one another or did you ignore that verse? That is also pretty rich coming from a person that holds to a religious belief that still gives women almost no rights in much of the Middle East.

6.Women must keep silent in Churches. It is shameful for them to open their mouths therein. If they have a question they should ask their husbands before going to church and then their husbands will ask for them in the church.

Out of context, Paul was addressing a specific situation and giving some good advice. Do not interrupt the teacher, but let them finish and THEN ask questions. Sounds like some pretty sound advice to me, especially when one understands how teaching if the 1st century was conducted.

7.A woman should neither pray nor profess with her head uncovered.

You mean like women in the Middle East who still hold to today? Why do women in the Middle East wear a cover and what did things like no covering or short hair mean to the people of the era? You do know that in the area Paul is talking with, prostitutes tended to not wear head coverings and tended to have short hair, right? Perhaps that has something to do with Paul's message?

8.If a woman prays with her head uncoveredthen she might as well shave her head.

Yeah, cause she loses her honor or are you unaware of honor/shame cultures and what having your head covered means in that context?

9.Man was created in the image and glory of God, and Woman was created in the glory of Man, thus Man must have power over her.

Wrong again, Paul was addressing a false teaching.

10.Any woman who delivers a male baby shall be unclean for one week. But any woman who delivers a female baby shall be unclean for TWO weeks. Thus, females make their mothers DOUBLY unclean as compared to males.

Bonding time for mothers to bond with their daughters. The mother-daugther relationship is a very special relationship, you do know that, right?

11.While it is possible to find one upright man in every thousand, it is impossible to find even one single upright woman in every thousand

Yeah, sort of like how men and women today talk about how it is impossible to find a good man or women means they are sexist and hate all men or women.

12.Woman is a snare, her heart is a trap, and her hands are chains. The man who pleases God will escape her, but she will ensnare the sinner.

I don't know where you get that from, but hey... I guess men and women who say things like 'all men are pigs' or 'all women are sluts' must be all sexist instead of upset over an event that happened to them. The Bible is a book that covers both our high moments and our low moments, so is the author of Ecclesiates not allowed to express this feeling he is having?

13.If a woman had her period and touches a chair or a bed or anything else then that item immediately becomes unclean. Anyone who then touches those things shall also become unclean. They must then bathe themselves and wash their clothes because they have touched an item that a menstruous woman has touched.

So good hygiene practices mean nothing to you? In that era, the best these women had was pretty much a rag that simply caught some excess menstrual blood, but obviously, it couldn't catch it all and was quite dirty and messy (there is a reason they would often bathe right after their menstrual cycle was over). So to prevent the spread of disease, it would be best for anybody that can not to get directly involved and to clean themselves up if they came into contact. Now in 2012, we have tampons and pads that are quite efficient, clean, and more then capable of keeping this previously rather messy affair far more sanitary.

Champions of women freedom fighters ( christians) , please explain us what you bible is trying to say..

I did and the conclusion is you're an idiot that reads the Bible with the 'plain reading of the text' in mind. It is also pretty rich coming from a person that follows a religious belief that is involved in suppressing millions of women all over the Middle East today. You complain about women having to wear a cover on their head, but don't bat an eye when many women have to wear an entire covering that covers them head to foot?

[amigoxp]

Ok , lets analyse one by one. please explain sceintifically or rationaly.

Levi. 15:19] - i have taken the word 'and' for your easy reference

A. When a woman has a discharge of blood which in her regular discharge from her body, she shall be apart seven days.
B. And WHOSOEVER TOUCHES HER SHALL BE UNCLEAN until the evening.
C. every thing that she lies upon in her SEPARATION shall be unclean.
D. Every thing also that SHE SITS UPON SHALL BE UNCLEAN.
E. whosoever touches her bed shall wash his clothes and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the evening
F. whosoever touches anything THAT SHE SAT UPON SHALL WASH HIS CLOTHES, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the evening.

G. if it be on her bed, or any thing whereon she sits when he touches it: he SHALL BE UNCLEAN UNTIL THE EVENING.
H. if any man lie with her at all, and her flowers be upon him: he shall be unclean seven days, and all the bed WHEREON SHE LIES SHALL BE UNCLEAN.

I if a woman have an issue of her blood many days out of the time of her separation, or if it run beyond the time of her SEPARATION: All the days of the issue of her uncleanness shall be as the days of her SEPARATION, she shall be unclean.
J. Every bed whereon she lies all the days of her issue shall be unto her as the bed of her SEPARATION, and whatsoever she sits upon shall be unclean, as the uncleanness of her SEPARATION.

K. WHOSOEVER TOUCHES THOSE THINGS SHALL BE UNCLEAN and shall wash his clothes and bathes himself in water, and he BE UNCLEAN UNTIL THE EVENING.
L. if she be cleansed of her issue, then she shall number to herself seven days, and after that she shall be clean.
M. on the eighth day she shall take unto her two turtles or two young pigeons, and bring them unto the priest to the door of the meeting tent.

Now answer me.

[amigoxp]

Ok , lets analyse one by one. please explain sceintifically or rationaly.

Levi. 15:19] - i have taken the word 'and' for your easy reference

A. When a woman has a discharge of blood which in her regular discharge from her body, she shall be apart seven days.
B. And WHOSOEVER TOUCHES HER SHALL BE UNCLEAN until the evening.
C. every thing that she lies upon in her SEPARATION shall be unclean.
D. Every thing also that SHE SITS UPON SHALL BE UNCLEAN.
E. whosoever touches her bed shall wash his clothes and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the evening
F. whosoever touches anything THAT SHE SAT UPON SHALL WASH HIS CLOTHES, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the evening.

G. if it be on her bed, or any thing whereon she sits when he touches it: he SHALL BE UNCLEAN UNTIL THE EVENING.
H. if any man lie with her at all, and her flowers be upon him: he shall be unclean seven days, and all the bed WHEREON SHE LIES SHALL BE UNCLEAN.

I if a woman have an issue of her blood many days out of the time of her separation, or if it run beyond the time of her SEPARATION: All the days of the issue of her uncleanness shall be as the days of her SEPARATION, she shall be unclean.
J. Every bed whereon she lies all the days of her issue shall be unto her as the bed of her SEPARATION, and whatsoever she sits upon shall be unclean, as the uncleanness of her SEPARATION.

K. WHOSOEVER TOUCHES THOSE THINGS SHALL BE UNCLEAN and shall wash his clothes and bathes himself in water, and he BE UNCLEAN UNTIL THE EVENING.
L. if she be cleansed of her issue, then she shall number to herself seven days, and after that she shall be clean.
M. on the eighth day she shall take unto her two turtles or two young pigeons, and bring them unto the priest to the door of the meeting tent.

Now answer me.

[Cerebrum123]

Ok , lets analyse one by one. please explain sceintifically or rationaly.

Levi. 15:19] - i have taken the word 'and' for your easy reference

A. When a woman has a discharge of blood which in her regular discharge from her body, she shall be apart seven days.
B. And WHOSOEVER TOUCHES HER SHALL BE UNCLEAN until the evening.
C. every thing that she lies upon in her SEPARATION shall be unclean.
D. Every thing also that SHE SITS UPON SHALL BE UNCLEAN.
E. whosoever touches her bed shall wash his clothes and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the evening
F. whosoever touches anything THAT SHE SAT UPON SHALL WASH HIS CLOTHES, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the evening.

G. if it be on her bed, or any thing whereon she sits when he touches it: he SHALL BE UNCLEAN UNTIL THE EVENING.
H. if any man lie with her at all, and her flowers be upon him: he shall be unclean seven days, and all the bed WHEREON SHE LIES SHALL BE UNCLEAN.

I if a woman have an issue of her blood many days out of the time of her separation, or if it run beyond the time of her SEPARATION: All the days of the issue of her uncleanness shall be as the days of her SEPARATION, she shall be unclean.
J. Every bed whereon she lies all the days of her issue shall be unto her as the bed of her SEPARATION, and whatsoever she sits upon shall be unclean, as the uncleanness of her SEPARATION.

K. WHOSOEVER TOUCHES THOSE THINGS SHALL BE UNCLEAN and shall wash his clothes and bathes himself in water, and he BE UNCLEAN UNTIL THE EVENING.
L. if she be cleansed of her issue, then she shall number to herself seven days, and after that she shall be clean.
M. on the eighth day she shall take unto her two turtles or two young pigeons, and bring them unto the priest to the door of the meeting tent.

Now answer me.

Dude, lpot already gave you a rational answer, and one that actually fits well with some of our medical knowledge as well. It helped to prevent spread of disease, also the same rule applied to men who have "discharges"(I know it's kind of a gross subject, but men were given similar rules, for their own bodily functions). Also you need to account for the ritual purity, which was a very important aspect in that time and culture(it is in Islam today, so I don't know why you are attacking like this, in fact Mohammed said that a woman's period was a disease, and that women needed to be avoided during this time They will question thee concerning the monthly course. Say: 'It is hurt; so go apart from women during the monthly course, and do not approach them till they are clean. When they have cleansed themselves, then come unto them as God has commanded you.' Truly, God loves those who repent, and He loves those who cleanse themselves. S. 2:222 Arberry The word translated as "hurt" is sometimes translated as disease, or even pollution).

Before you make us answer your questions (which we already have), how about you answer the OP, after that i have at least one more, and it's on this subject that you are continually bringing up. Why did Mohammed classify menstruation as a "handiwork of Satan" reference here Narrated Grandfather of Adi ibn Thabit
Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) said: Sneezing, drowsing, yawning in prayer, also menstruation, vomiting and nose-bleeding are from (the acts of) Satan. Transmitted by Tirmidhi. (Tirmidhi Hadith, Number 315; ALIM CD-ROM Version)

So, amigoxp, we have answered your questions, now answer ours.

[lilpixieofterror]

Ok , lets analyse one by one. please explain sceintifically or rationaly.

I already did, it isn't my fault you are stupid. Female hygiene products of the time were not nearly as good as the ones today. That time of the month even today is still a rather messy ordeal for a number of women around the world, even with things like pads and tampons. Now imagine it with, at best, a piece of cloth shoved between the legs that doesn't catch everything. Is it messy? Oh yeah. Now your next part about the sacrifice, sacrifices were given throughout the law of Moses my dear for all sorts of things. If you had to deal with a menstrual cycle, you would be giving blessing when it is all over too. In all seriousness though, I don't see it as sexist in the era at all and thus far all you got is, "I don't like it!" Well that is nice and it is also pretty rich to hear that from a Muslim with all the suppression of women done in the Middle East right now. I wouldn't even be able to question you in many parts of the Middle East in 2012 while in the Christian world, we had/have women leaders and women saints. Might want to get your own house in order, before you attempt to question ours because in my marriage, I am a partner, but for many women in the Middle East today, they are not.

[amigoxp]

nope , you have not answer my question. i am asking how can i be unclean if i touch my wife if she is suffering of menses. this is against the science.hope you know more science than i do.

can you tell me what kind of disease spread during the menses ? how can the bed or any thing that she touches become unclean.? is this disease fatal ? bcoz everyone knows that microbes are present in every place, that does not mean it is infected? the bible verse clearly says whatever she touches becomes unclean? this is not logical.

if i touch a pen which a menses woman has touched, then i will become unclean? can accept this?

quran is God's word. we have no disputes with it. but hadith is not the word of god. but it is the tradition of prophet mohamed. his companions informed about his tradition. it is like gospel in christianity. Gospels are not God's word but it is news related to jesus life. likewise hadith also written later. so Either way, the Tirmidhi narration is weak just as Albani states in his Jaami' Al Tirmidhi, hadith no. 2748. it is weak hadith.

quran also says about menses but it never tells that whoever or whichever touching menses women become unclean. this is the point i am rising? you know the women become weak during menses, in that time you are torturing her . is it fair?

i raise this question becoz it degrades a women when she is weak and need help from others. am i right? My simple question is can God make these harch punishment for women ? is God unjust? Why women are subjected to these kinds of tortures?

reply me

[amigoxp]

you are wrong. islam has given freedom to women and they are enjoying for the past 1400 years. if you need proof then take quran and bible and compare; you will know it.

further today islam is the fastest growing religion in the word, perticularly in western world. you know how the women are enjoying the liberty and in the study it was revealed that 2/3 of the converts are female and below 30. if islam is oppressing women in middle east why the liberal christian world christian women are embrassing islam. you may think i am lying , so see the news from the independent from UK.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...h-2175178.html

are christian women liberated from christianity?

[Cerebrum123]

nope , you have not answer my question. i am asking how can i be unclean if i touch my wife if she is suffering of menses. this is against the science.hope you know more science than i do.

can you tell me what kind of disease spread during the menses ? how can the bed or any thing that she touches become unclean.? is this disease fatal ? bcoz everyone knows that microbes are present in every place, that does not mean it is infected? the bible verse clearly says whatever she touches becomes unclean? this is not logical.

if i touch a pen which a menses woman has touched, then i will become unclean? can accept this?

quran is God's word. we have no disputes with it. but hadith is not the word of god. but it is the tradition of prophet mohamed. his companions informed about his tradition. it is like gospel in christianity. Gospels are not God's word but it is news related to jesus life. likewise hadith also written later. so Either way, the Tirmidhi narration is weak just as Albani states in his Jaami' Al Tirmidhi, hadith no. 2748. it is weak hadith.

quran also says about menses but it never tells that whoever or whichever touching menses women become unclean. this is the point i am rising? you know the women become weak during menses, in that time you are torturing her . is it fair?

i raise this question becoz it degrades a women when she is weak and need help from others. am i right? My simple question is can God make these harch punishment for women ? is God unjust? Why women are subjected to these kinds of tortures?

reply me

Ok, first yes we did answer you. Also not everything I put up there was Hadith only, a Quran verse was included, and you didn't respond to it. So why did Mohammed have very similar rules concerning this? Also why did Mohammed break his own rules considering this? This time I will use Sahih al-Bukhari, since his tradition isn't considered "weak".

Narrated 'Aisha:
The Prophet and I used to take a bath from a single pot while we were Junub. During the menses, he used to order me to put on an Izar (dress worn below the waist) and used to fondle me. While in Itikaf, he used to bring his head near me and I would wash it while I used to be in my periods (menses). (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 6, Number 298)

Narrated 'Abdur-Rahman bin Al-Aswad:
(on the authority of his father) 'Aisha said: "Whenever Allah's Apostle wanted to fondle anyone of us during her periods (menses), he used to order her to put on an Izar and start fondling her." 'Aisha added, "None of you could control his sexual desires as the Prophet could." (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 6, Number 299; see also Number 300)

Also you apparently don't know anything about RITUAL purity, which doesn't necessarily have anything to do with what we consider to be "clean". I'll give you a link that explains it in terms that you should be able to understand http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qhB_8ge88o&feature=plcp


Islam is the most restrictive religion as far as women are concerned, and in the Middle East, they are being seriously hurt, and all due to "prophet" Mohammed's "example". Over there we have rampant rape, pedophilia, the burka, insane marriage laws, Sharia law etc. These things are truly hurting women, not a purity law that isn't in effect in the New Covenant with Christians. The Gospels were written very shortly after Jesus died, and are some of the most historically reliable documents in existence. They are indeed the word of God, and are records of what the Word of God actually did ans said. Isa isn't the same as Jesus (Isa is actually Esau transliterated into Arabic instead of Yeshua) Your point is weak and has been refuted millions of times. Also Islam isn't really growing by converts, but by childbirth, and massive immigration. The only people who convert to Islam and actually stay(instead of convert back, even under the threat of death) are criminals, just like your "holy prophet".
Your use of a UK news source on Islam is laughable, they are so afraid of being killed that they placate the Muslims on a regular basis(most do anyway). Also the increase is due to increase in population size, not converts, like I said above. Also many who do convert, are usually doing so because they are afraid for their lives. Have you heard of the "no go Sharia zones"? They are basically Islamic camps that don't obey the UK (and other EU countries) laws, and even the police are afraid to go there for the sake of their own lives. Also the majority of rape in many EU countries is committed by Muslims, who are a minority group. We have examples of 68% of rapes being perpetrated by Muslims in some EU countries(would give a link, but I think it might be against the rules here to link something so graphic). I ask you why?

No, why don't you answer my questions this time, hmm?

[lilpixieofterror]

[QUOTE=amigoxp;3401820]nope , you have not answer my question. i am asking how can i be unclean if i touch my wife if she is suffering of menses. this is against the science.hope you know more science than i do. [/quote

Again, I already explained this and you ignored it. How revealing, the answer is two fold:

1. Modern female hygiene products are a good deal more effective then the products available 3,000 years ago. The best women had was just a piece of cloth and this was rather messy too. Besides, there are plenty of illness spread though the transfer of body fluids and don't take my word for it, take the health care industries word for it. Why do you think they are so careful with needles that puncture the skin and throw them away in special containers so nobody gets poked?
2. Ritual purity was very important in that time frame as well.

can you tell me what kind of disease spread during the menses ? how can the bed or any thing that she touches become unclean.? is this disease fatal ? bcoz everyone knows that microbes are present in every place, that does not mean it is infected? the bible verse clearly says whatever she touches becomes unclean? this is not logical.

Is menstruation blood a body fluid? Yes. Are their blood born diseases that spread though the blood? Yes or do you think there might be a reason why we invented things to soak it up with if there wasn't some sort of danger with it? Now in 2012 it doesn't make much sense at all, but the Bible was not written in 2012. Again, stop being stupid, you were answered.

if i touch a pen which a menses woman has touched, then i will become unclean? can accept this?

Does the Bible say that? Nope, so you're just making up things to make it sound absurd instead of learning things for yourself. Also, it is rather funny that a Muslim says these things while women all over the Islamic world are treated like second class citizens. Might want to go and teach your fellow Muslims about women's rights because in the west, we have women leaders, women prophets, women saints, etc. Answer me this, would I have been able to got to college or live on my own if I would have been born in Saudi?

quran is God's word. we have no disputes with it. but hadith is not the word of god. but it is the tradition of prophet mohamed. his companions informed about his tradition. it is like gospel in christianity. Gospels are not God's word but it is news related to jesus life. likewise hadith also written later. so Either way, the Tirmidhi narration is weak just as Albani states in his Jaami' Al Tirmidhi, hadith no. 2748. it is weak hadith.

Not only do you refuse to answer things that are above your little head and just ignore what you don't want to hear, you also do not understand that Christians view the Bible, to include the gospels, as the word of God.

quran also says about menses but it never tells that whoever or whichever touching menses women become unclean. this is the point i am rising? you know the women become weak during menses, in that time you are torturing her . is it fair?

The Quran was also written over 1500 years later, do you think things might of changed in that 1500 year time frame (like hygiene or ideas of ritual purity)? Also, in the west where Christianity is the dominate religion, I was able to not only go to primary school, but college and I was able to graduate from college too. If I was born in Saudi, would I able to do that? Nope, so again you want to talk about fair, how about we talk about how fairly women are treated in countries that are Islamic countries when compared to western countries, ok? The west had women leaders like Johna of Ark, Elizabeth, Victoria, or Isabelle. What is Islam's history with women leaders? Likewise, does the Bible say her husband can not help her? Nope, it just says he will become unclean and has to clean himself up. Is that really that big of a deal?

i raise this question becoz it degrades a women when she is weak and need help from others. am i right? My simple question is can God make these harch punishment for women ? is God unjust? Why women are subjected to these kinds of tortures?

And that is quite rich coming from a Muslim, which is the religion that is responsible for suppressing women all over the world. If I was born in Saudi, I wouldn't have ever been able to go to college, let alone have a degree. I would never have been able to leave my parents house and be out on my own. I would have never been able to meet my now husband the way I did because I would have never been able to be around him the way I was. Sorry Amigoxp, you can't pull the wool over my eyes. I have been to the middle east and seen it with my own eyes, the women there do not have nearly the same liberation that we got here in the west.

[lilpixieofterror]

you are wrong. islam has given freedom to women and they are enjoying for the past 1400 years. if you need proof then take quran and bible and compare; you will know it.

Name 5 women put into major positions of leadership during the history of Islam. I can name 5 women leaders that have been put into positions of leadership within the past 50, but none really come up with Islam, why is that?

further today islam is the fastest growing religion in the word, perticularly in western world. you know how the women are enjoying the liberty and in the study it was revealed that 2/3 of the converts are female and below 30. if islam is oppressing women in middle east why the liberal christian world christian women are embrassing islam. you may think i am lying , so see the news from the independent from UK.

Because many of them have not been to these countries themselves and seen first hand how poorly women are really treated over there. I would not have been able to go to college in Saudi, but I can and did in the west.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...h-2175178.html

are christian women liberated from christianity?

Are we able to vote in the west? Yep. Am I able to voice my opinions upon religion or politics? Yes. Would I have been able to do this in Saudi? Nope. Sorry but you could try to pull the wool over the eyes of those that have never been there, but I also know better too. I've been there, I've seen it and even those 'liberal' countries in the Islamic world are not nearly as liberated as I am over here. An example I can think of is a story I read in a local paper, while over there, of a young women a little older then I was, that was raped by 3 men and she got arrested and charged for the rape! And that was one of the more liberal countries over there. Gosh, in the west, we take care of rape victims, it seems the Islamic world arrest them and charges them for being raped. Yeah, such a liberating view of women that the Islamic world has.

[Cerebrum123]

Also, it is rather funny that a Muslim says these things while women all over the Islamic world are treated like second class citizens

Unfortunately in many Islamic countries, they are treated even worse than that, and more like animals. This has to do with Mohammed's very low view of women. He talked about how "a dog, a donkey, and a woman can cancel out a prayer if they pass in front of a Muslim" (I'm paraphrasing here). He also said that women were a "bad omen" while comparing them to other things, like horses. He also said that the majority of people in hell will be women. I really can't understand why any woman could ever actively choose Islam