Jeremiah 17:9 and the deceitful heart

[OtherCheek]

In another thread where we were discussing the topic of the human conscience, the following scripture was quoted in support of the idea that the heart is wicked and not to be trusted.

I don't think the conscience is necessarily a reliable guide.

Jer 17:9-10 NKJV

9 “The heart is deceitful above all things,
And desperately wicked;
Who can know it?
10 I, the Lord, search the heart,
I test the mind,
Even to give every man according to his ways,
According to the fruit of his doings.


Prov 14:12

There is a way that seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death.

I was wondering how far people take this---that the "heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked"?

Does this verse impugn the motive of deceit upon all people when they speak from the heart?
Does this verse mean that you should never listen to your heart, because it is "deceitful above all?"
Do all hearts at all times fall into the category of "deceitful above all?"
Does this verse make the case for "Total Depravity of man?"

Or do you think Jeremiah was focusing his words here to a smaller audience and specific circumstances rather than the whole of humanity, at all times, and all places?

I don't believe that Jeremiah meant to condemn the human heart. I believe he was speaking specifically to those who had turned from the Lord, and knew better, and were HARD HEARTED.

What think ye?

[Cow Poke]

That think ye?

I think you meant "what".

I think we can see so many examples of people making bad decisions based on their feelings. Even with "good intentions", it's easy to come to wrong conclusions based on emotions.

It's a caution, IMO, that the "heart" cannot be trusted implicitly.

[OtherCheek]

I think you meant "what".

What a mifference a letter can dake.

I think we can see so many examples of people making bad decisions based on their feelings. Even with "good intentions", it's easy to come to wrong conclusions based on emotions.

It's a caution, IMO, that the "heart" cannot be trusted implicitly.

I can agree with that.

[Cow Poke]

What a mifference a letter can dake.

OK... probably the most embarrassing thing I ever said was when I was a Youth Minister, and I took our youth group to the state park. We were talking like your sample above, and I got a loaf of bread from the bus and announced, rather loudly, "Let's all go down and feed the ducks"

I heard about that for YEARS!

I can agree with that.

is that the twilight zone music I hear?

[One Bad Pig]

I think you meant "what".

I think we can see so many examples of people making bad decisions based on their feelings. Even with "good intentions", it's easy to come to wrong conclusions based on emotions.

It's a caution, IMO, that the "heart" cannot be trusted implicitly.

Yep.

[OtherCheek]

I think you meant "what".

I think we can see so many examples of people making bad decisions based on their feelings. Even with "good intentions", it's easy to come to wrong conclusions based on emotions.

It's a caution, IMO, that the "heart" cannot be trusted implicitly.

Wait as second. I just saw the word "implicitly" but originally thought it read "exclusively". A mis-reading on my part. So I'm not sure what you meant by "implicitly."

[Cow Poke]

Wait as second. I just saw the word "implicitly" but originally thought it read "exclusively". A mis-reading on my part. So I'm not sure what you meant by "implicitly."

2: being without doubt or reserve : unquestioning <an implicit trust>

The heart alone cannot be trusted - that's why we have the Bible, brothers and sisters in Christ, elders, pastors, counselors...

[OtherCheek]

2: being without doubt or reserve : unquestioning <an implicit trust>

The heart alone cannot be trusted - that's why we have the Bible, brothers and sisters in Christ, elders, pastors, counselors...

OK, I think I understand you better. That is a far cry from saying that the heart can be counted on to always be deceitful above all things and should always take the lowest priority in discerning between right and wrong.

[Cow Poke]

OK, I think I understand you better. That is a far cry from saying that the heart can be counted on to always be deceitful above all things and should always take the lowest priority in discerning between right and wrong.

Well, yeah, cause if I had wanted to say something like THAT, I would have asked for your help, cause I'm not usually given to such false dichotomies!

I think it is WISE, in matters of the heart, to do some double-checking, particularly where emotions are involved.

Remember --- puppy love is REAL to the puppy!

[OtherCheek]

Well, yeah, cause if I had wanted to say something like THAT, I would have asked for your help, cause I'm not usually given to such false dichotomies!

I think it is WISE, in matters of the heart, to do some double-checking, particularly where emotions are involved.

Remember --- puppy love is REAL to the puppy!

Yes, true. But I wasn't talking about romantic relationships. My point was to "INCLUDE" the heart and the conscience, as a way to test rightness from wrongness of things. But the feedback I got, was mostly for the idea of "EXCLUDING' the heart of having a trustworthy role in discerning right from wrong.

[Cow Poke]

Yes, true. But I wasn't talking about romantic relationships. My point was to "INCLUDE" the heart and the conscience, as a way to test rightness from wrongness of things. But the feedback I got, was mostly for the idea of "EXCLUDING' the heart of having a trustworthy role in discerning right from wrong.

When I was a kid, there was a bumper sticker that I saw frequently that said....

Let your conscience BIBLE be your guide.

The heart is too easily swayed. Why do you think David asked God to CREATE in him a clean heart?
(Psa 51:10 KJV) Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

[Sparko]

I think you and your conscience need to have a heart-to-heart.

[One Bad Pig]

Yes, true. But I wasn't talking about romantic relationships. My point was to "INCLUDE" the heart and the conscience, as a way to test rightness from wrongness of things. But the feedback I got, was mostly for the idea of "EXCLUDING' the heart of having a trustworthy role in discerning right from wrong.

Your point seemed, IMO, to rely on the heart and conscience exclusively, not to "include" them with some other criterion. I think the heart has a role to play in testing things, but should not be relied on exclusively. Similarly, we should not exclusively lean on our own understanding (Prov 3:5-6).

[OtherCheek]

Your point seemed, IMO, to rely on the heart and conscience exclusively, not to "include" them with some other criterion. I think the heart has a role to play in testing things, but should not be relied on exclusively. Similarly, we should not exclusively lean on our own understanding (Prov 3:5-6).

Then I think we are closer on this than I originally thought.

[Hamster]

Does this verse mean that you should never listen to your heart, because it is "deceitful above all?"

Your eyes can play tricks on you but no one says you should never use your eyes. However, you have four other senses along with sight, you're supposed to use them all. And you have a heart and a mind and you're supposed to use them both