Calvinism and "assurance"

[George Blaisdell]

However, full Arminians lack prospective assurance, because
they have no way of knowing whether they'll continue to have fruit in the future.

Heb_6:11 And we desire that every one of you
do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:

1Pe_1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober,
and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you
at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

Mat_10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Mat_24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mar_13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.


Looks like personal responsibility is placed here upon the person of the believer in all these passages, RB...

I mean, it is the BELIEVER who is being told to DO these things TO THE END, is he not???

Assurance thereby is found in one's own personal perseverance to the end...

Nothing about God persevering FOR the believer...

The believer does HIS part, and God does His...

It's called a covenant...

Divorcing human responsibility for one's salvation from the Promises of God to give Salvation destroys the covenant with God which is unto human Salvation...

Arsenios

[footwasher]

I didn't say false believers are given the Holy Spirit. I said that you were correct when you said that (true) believers have the Holy Spirit. Calvinists and Arminians believe that to be true. However, full Arminians lack prospective assurance, because they have no way of knowing whether they'll continue to have fruit in the future.

Which is consistent with how the Bible describes retention or loss of salvation. the following passage spans OT and NT examples of salvation and its completion:

1 For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers and sisters, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea,

2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,

3 and all ate the same spiritual food,

4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they were all drinking from the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ.

5 But God was not pleased with most of them, for they were cut down in the wilderness.

6 These things happened as examples for us, so that we will not crave evil things as they did.

7 So do not be idolaters, as some of them were. As it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink and rose up to play.”

8 And let us not be immoral, as some of them were, and twenty-three thousand died in a single day.

9 And let us not put Christ to the test, as some of them did, and were destroyed by snakes.

10 And do not complain, as some of them did, and were killed by the destroying angel.

11 These things happened to them as examples and were written for our instruction, on whom the ends of the ages have come.

12 So let the one who thinks he is standing be careful that he does not fall. 1 Cor 10

When Jesus says that the disciple has been made clean because of his hearing the word (the message, revelation) He, Jesus, had spoken (and ostensibly, believed) that message was that God had fulfilled his promise through Christ.

Belief makes clean: the disciples, the syro-Phoenician woman, the Ethiopian eunuch, Simon sorcerer, Ananias and Sapphira.

Abiding, washing feet, continuing in belief to more revelation is what completes the cleansing, working out of salvation with fear and trembling.

The Ethiopian eunuch was baptized on exhibiting faith. The children of the jailer in Acts were baptized based on the presence of faith in the adult family member. So that is common, the presence of faith. It is this faith that gives confidence to the baptist that there is a high likelihood of completion of cleaning. It is as we walk in the light as he is in the light that his blood cleanse us of all sin.

The first cleansing is no guarantee of final completion of the work, baptism does not ”take” automatically, as the writer woefully noted above.


Ttt

[RBerman]

When Jesus says that the disciple has been made clean because of his hearing the word (the message, revelation) He, Jesus, had spoken (and ostensibly, believed) that message was that God had fulfilled his promise through Christ. Belief makes clean: the disciples, the syro-Phoenician woman, the Ethiopian eunuch, Simon sorcerer, Ananias and Sapphira. Abiding, washing feet, continuing in belief to more revelation is what completes the cleansing, working out of salvation with fear and trembling. The Ethiopian eunuch was baptized on exhibiting faith. The children of the jailer in Acts were baptized based on the presence of faith in the adult family member. So that is common, the presence of faith. It is this faith that gives confidence to the baptist that there is a high likelihood of completion of cleaning. It is as we walk in the light as he is in the light that his blood cleanse us of all sin. The first cleansing is no guarantee of final completion of the work, baptism does not ”take” automatically, as the writer woefully noted above.

It appears that you're satisfied with "a high likelihood of completion of cleaning." Should the Calvinist have a different standard?

[footwasher]

It appears that you're satisfied with "a high likelihood of completion of cleaning." Should the Calvinist have a different standard?

Bottom line, this is the biblical position:

Will I be justified if I believe God? Yes.
Will I be perfected if I continue to believe. Yes.


This is the predicament of Calvinism:

Will I be justified if I believe? Dunno. My belief may be false.
Will I be perfected if I believe? Dunno. I'll only know on the Day of Judgment if my belief was genuine.


BTW, there is no such construct as a false belief. Either you believe or you don't.
This is the situation of an apostate:

Believed, was justified.
Stopped believing, the wrath of God falls on him, is not going to be perfected.
Believes again, will be perfected.

[RBerman]

Bottom line, this is the biblical position:

Will I be justified if I believe God? Yes.
Will I be perfected if I continue to believe. Yes.


This is the predicament of Calvinism:

Will I be justified if I believe? Dunno. My belief may be false.
Will I be perfected if I believe? Dunno. I'll only know on the Day of Judgment if my belief was genuine.


BTW, there is no such construct as a false belief. Either you believe or you don't.
This is the situation of an apostate:

Believed, was justified.
Stopped believing, the wrath of God falls on him, is not going to be perfected.
Believes again, will be perfected.

I can see that we're not making any progress. I wish you well.

[George Blaisdell]

However, full Arminians lack prospective assurance, because
they have no way of knowing whether they'll continue to have fruit in the future.

They have the knowledge that God commands them to persevere to the end...
And that thereby they CAN do so, IF they are WILLING to do so...

The Calvinist cannot know IF he is one of the elect...
Therefore, he cannot know IF he will persevere to the end and be saved...

Arsenios

[FarEastBird]

It seems to me that Calvinists have a problem with giving themselves "assurance."

Sure, God is "assured" of having a people for Himself.

However, Calvinists acknowledge that no one really knows who is elect and who is not. How do any of you have 'assurance' that God hasn't planned a later in life twist, where you get angry at God for something and walk away, and fall into the category of those who never really believed in the first place? There's no way for you to quantify that, because you have no control over whether you're a real believer or not.

It's almost like being fish in a barrel. You never really know who's going to be shot next.

How is it you can claim assurance, when you have none?

My assurance of salvation is based on my knowledge of the mystery of the kingdom of God. As what Christ said, “Unto you is given the mystery of the kingdom of God.” Since I came to know it, I am therefore and elect. This knowledge is NOT like a HUNCH. This knowledge(faith) is firm and thus it serves as EVIDENCE.

When I say “I put on Christ”, or “Christ lives in me”, or that “I am dead to sin”, I knew firmly and exactly what they meant. I claim those things NOT HOPING that they will come true; rather I claim them as TRUTH about me. So, as I claim that “I AM DEAD TO SIN”, and that it is TRUTH, how will I have no assurance then? For if I claim to still sin, then I make myself a liar, or not knowing what I claimed of what I am.

5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

If one still claims to still sin, then he has not yet known the mystery of sin, and of Christ’s salvation. People claim to be dead of sin IN HOPE that it is true. And that simply meant they do not know if they are saved of not; so how could they claim assurance indeed? They have no assurance.

But if one new the mystery of the claim that “we are dead to sin”, as the claim itself clearly implies, WE ARE ASSRURED!



Peace,
FEB

[George Blaisdell]

My assurance of salvation is based on my knowledge...

“I am dead to sin” I claim as TRUTH about me. I claim that “I AM DEAD TO SIN”,
FEB

That is quite a claim - Even the Apostle Paul did not make so bold... He had a thorn in the flesh he had to beat himself black and blue over... He was not dead to sin at all, but had to consistently fight it off, and he persevered to the end... Lest he be unapproved, having taught others... As I recall, when he asked God to remove that demonic thorn, God said no, that "My Grace sufficeth thee..."

So that the presence of God's Grace is a basis for assurance, perhaps, except that for Paul, it had to be "maintained" by physical self-subjugation, and "not as one beating the air..." And the Grace Paul had was the Apostolic Grace of the myriad of the Apostolic gifts... Do you claim these as well - eg prophetic insight? The fathering of souls? And on and on? Visions and tongues, prophesy and teaching and correction? How many folks do you know who have Paul's gifts?

Arsenios

[FarEastBird]

That is quite a claim - Even the Apostle Paul did not make so bold... He had a thorn in the flesh he had to beat himself black and blue over... He was not dead to sin at all, but had to consistently fight it off, and he persevered to the end... Lest he be unapproved, having taught others... As I recall, when he asked God to remove that demonic thorn, God said no, that "My Grace sufficeth thee..."

He did make the claim! You just may have not had noticed it.

First, you have to notice that there is a difference between those “carnally discerned” to those “spiritually discerned” listeners. (1Cor 3:1-3, Heb 5:11-14, 1Cor 8:7) Paul notes that those who are “spiritually discerned” are the ones who had attained knowledge, while those “carnally discerned” were being encouraged to hope that they come to knowledge. And, sometimes, Paul empathize with the listeners, but he does not necessarily meant that he also belonged to the same category with his audience:

19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some - 1Cor 9:19-22

Most par of Paul’s epistles were written as words of encouragement, thus his choice of words and show of empathy is to categorized himself as “carnally discerned”, leading his audience that they imitate him. In these instances that you read him giving such impression of himself as carnally discerned, does not meant that he is, himself, “carnally discerned.” This misreading of Paul’s character had confused many to think of Paul holding an “arminian” type of faith. And if one really understand the gospel, he should know that the leap from being “carnally discerned” to “spiritually discerned” is beyond our ability. To have the “spiritual discernment” is a gift, thus Paul encourages the audience to hope to come to knowledge, and that their works will serve as a sign of their hope, NOT AS PROOF. Their work will never give them assurance that they will come to the knowledge. Some may persevere in works until the end, but yet remain ignorant of the mystery, having not attained “spiritual discernment.”

The claim itself -- of being dead to sin -- is a succinct example. There is no other way for a “carnally discerned” person but to hope to know/understand it; he can never work it out to come to understand it. I can share words to lead you to understand it, but it would not meant that you will come to understand it.

So that the presence of God's Grace is a basis for assurance, perhaps, except that for Paul, it had to be "maintained" by physical self-subjugation, and "not as one beating the air..."

One perspective of Paul showing his assurance of election was about his calling. And in this case, his election will be justified until he finish the course of his calling, to reach his fate, that is, to suffer death himself(Rom 8:36). Since he has yet to finish the course of his calling, it impresses to the audience that he is hoping. This is a good way to reach to the those who are “carnally discerned.” But of him, being “spiritually discerned,” having received the spirit of discernment, knew in himself that he is assured of salvation. Paul cannot relate what he understands unto those who are carnally discerned, so there is no other course but to encourage the carnally discerned to hope, as he try to encourage them to imitate him.


FEB

[George Blaisdell]

He did make the claim! You just may have not had noticed it.

First, you have to notice that there is a difference between those “carnally discerned” to those “spiritually discerned” listeners. (1Cor 3:1-3, Heb 5:11-14, 1Cor 8:7) Paul notes that those who are “spiritually discerned” are the ones who had attained knowledge, while those “carnally discerned” were being encouraged to hope that they come to knowledge. And, sometimes, Paul empathize with the listeners, but he does not necessarily meant that he also belonged to the same category with his audience:

19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some - 1Cor 9:19-22

Most par of Paul’s epistles were written as words of encouragement, thus his choice of words and show of empathy is to categorized himself as “carnally discerned”, leading his audience that they imitate him. In these instances that you read him giving such impression of himself as carnally discerned, does not meant that he is, himself, “carnally discerned.” This misreading of Paul’s character had confused many to think of Paul holding an “arminian” type of faith. And if one really understand the gospel, he should know that the leap from being “carnally discerned” to “spiritually discerned” is beyond our ability. To have the “spiritual discernment” is a gift, thus Paul encourages the audience to hope to come to knowledge, and that their works will serve as a sign of their hope, NOT AS PROOF. Their work will never give them assurance that they will come to the knowledge. Some may persevere in works until the end, but yet remain ignorant of the mystery, having not attained “spiritual discernment.”

The claim itself -- of being dead to sin -- is a succinct example. There is no other way for a “carnally discerned” person but to hope to know/understand it; he can never work it out to come to understand it. I can share words to lead you to understand it, but it would not meant that you will come to understand it.




One perspective of Paul showing his assurance of election was about his calling. And in this case, his election will be justified until he finish the course of his calling, to reach his fate, that is, to suffer death himself(Rom 8:36). Since he has yet to finish the course of his calling, it impresses to the audience that he is hoping. This is a good way to reach to the those who are “carnally discerned.” But of him, being “spiritually discerned,” having received the spirit of discernment, knew in himself that he is assured of salvation. Paul cannot relate what he understands unto those who are carnally discerned, so there is no other course but to encourage the carnally discerned to hope, as he try to encourage them to imitate him.


FEB

The point is that Paul did not claim to be dead to sin as you do...
Irreligious of his discernment being spiritual or carnal...
He had to beat himself black and blue to MORTIFY his sin loving flesh...

Unlike you, it would seem...
So you are holier than Paul???

Arsenios

[FarEastBird]

The point is that Paul did not claim to be dead to sin as you do...
Irreligious of his discernment being spiritual or carnal...
He had to beat himself black and blue to MORTIFY his sin loving flesh...

I explained in my post why Paul seem to have that arminian stance. Even if you read Rom 6, Paul gives a message to the Romans to hope by saying "Likewise RECKON ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin." This he said because he knew that the Roman audience does not fully understand the mystery he is talking about. And for those who hold such reckoning has no assurance of what they are believing. But as he said: "For he that is dead is freed from sin", a dead person doesn't have to reckon that he is dead to sin; simply because he is dead. But the person who is still alive, we tell him to hope that he is dead to sin.

Unlike you, it would seem...
So you are holier than Paul???

Arsenios

Why you take it to be personal? Why on earth that this would be the case?

What I see in your heart is that you want to portray me as a monster, to make yourself above me.

Let us deal with our love of truth.

Peace,
FEB

[RBerman]

They have the knowledge that God commands them to persevere to the end...
And that thereby they CAN do so, IF they are WILLING to do so...

The Calvinist cannot know IF he is one of the elect...
Therefore, he cannot know IF he will persevere to the end and be saved...

The Arminian does not know whether he will be willing to persevere.

[Phat8594]

The Arminian does not know whether he will be willing to persevere.

And neither does the Calvinist.

[RBerman]

And neither does the Calvinist.

Not infallibly. But at least the Calvinist can say, "If I do currently have faith, then I will persevere in it." Whereas the Arminian must say, "Even if I do currently have faith, I may not persevere in it."

[Phat8594]

Not infallibly. But at least the Calvinist can say, "If I do currently have faith, then I will persevere in it." Whereas the Arminian must say, "Even if I do currently have faith, I may not persevere in it."

Sure, but thats also a big IF.

The faith of any particular person may be false faith masquerading around as if its legitimate, since true faith is shown through perserverence.


So while the Calvinist can say "If I have true faith, I will perservere", they should also note: "However, its a very real possibility that God has not chosen me for salvation, so what I think is faith may in fact be something else entirely. I guess we will find out when I die."