Calvinism and "assurance"

[George Blaisdell]

If assurance means "infallible knowledge" then you are correct. But I don't think that's a good definition of assurance.

If you want to know what assurance looks like, you will find it in the Publican -

You will remember that it was the Pharisee who had ASSURANCE of HIS salvation...

As you say, the Orthodox believe that they can lose their willingness to follow Christ, and thus their faith, and thus their salvation.

It goes further than that, RB... We have no small measure of assurance that we WILL lose our willingness to follow Christ, that this is a NORMAL part of one's walk in Christ... And more than that, we KNOW that this is a time of judgment for us, placing what we have built in the fire, and finding out what remains when it passes... That we rebuild again and anew from the Gold and the Silver that abides, and stepping away from the straw and mud and wood that does not abide... We expect to have such withdrawal of God's Grace, and it is for our salvation... Everything that God does and permits to be done for and to us is for our salvation, and this not because we are the elect, but because of God wanton and superabundant love for man... ALL things that transpire in ALL men's lives are for their salvation, but in those who are unwilling to pursue the Good, they work to their destruction, even though given for salvation... Until, finally, God gives up utterly as He did with Pharoah...

And yes, our little bit of puny willingness, utterly incapable of resisting demonic temptations, is ADDED TO by God, for even to will efficaciously against demonic principalities is given by God... But not against our will... In this fallen world and our fallenness within it, our willingness to pursue good, indeed to pursue God, is the trial we are going through, and it is huge, and it is worthwhile, and it is holy... What we DO here has consequences for eternity... And it is WE who DO, and God gives us tribulations as gifts in this world, and it is only in these that we find Him, in the Peace that is not as the world gives...

John writes about the condition of those who are mature in the Faith, how they are unable to be sinning... The DOING of sin, in one who is following Christ in the Faith of Christ, is cause of great crisis... There are a couple of things that can happen - Peter entered into bitter weeping of remorse and was called back to Christ and was restored... Judas returned the silver to the enemies of Christ and was not called back and hanged himself... Sinning is not an option for those mature in the faith... And that means intentional and willful sinning... There are sins of omission, of ignorance, and of unintention that beset the mature in the Faith plenty, but they are simply not capable of deliberately committing sin... If they try, they will be prevented - It take GREAT effort for one of these to turn from Christ, and yet some have managed it... The rest of us, who are NOT mature in the Faith, who are weak in vigilance, stumble their way through and are carried by the Grace of the Body of Christ, and by the prayers and intercessions of those who are mature, and of those who have finished the course and pray for us from the Throne of the Lamb...

So yes, we not only can, but we will lose our willingness to follow Christ, and then only our obedience and the prayers of the Body of Christ and our brotherly intercessions and interventions will help us to get past the dry periods, as God gives us grace even in His withdrawal from our awareness...,

Arsenios

[RBerman]

It take GREAT effort for one of these to turn from Christ, and yet some have managed it.

Thank you for proving my point about your beliefs.

[George Blaisdell]

Thank you for proving my point about your beliefs.

You are welcome...

It is called reality...

You see, in your man-made belief system created by the man Calvin, the big IF you confess is whether or not you have saving faith as one of the elect, and you cannot know one way or the other...

In the Apostolic Church of Christ, we HAVE the saving faith, no question, and the big IF is US...
Your big IF is God...
For us, God is not an IF...
You and I are the IF...

Arsenios

[RBerman]

You are welcome...

It is called reality...

You see, in your man-made belief system created by the man Calvin, the big IF you confess is whether or not you have saving faith as one of the elect, and you cannot know one way or the other...

In the Apostolic Church of Christ, we HAVE the saving faith, no question, and the big IF is US...
Your big IF is God...
For us, God is not an IF...
You and I are the IF...

And how glad I am that in the ultimate sense, my salvation depends on God's wisdom and mercy, rather than my own wisdom and gumption.

[George Blaisdell]

And how glad I am that in the ultimate sense,
my salvation depends on God's wisdom and mercy,
rather than my own wisdom and gumption.

God gave eternal life to Adam, and he threw it away with one sin...
As the Apostle records, death did not enter God's creation except through Adam's sin...
We are very much living the drama of the Garden...

Salvation is God's alone to give...
And ours alone to lose...

And faith is repentance...

And repentance is turning away from this fallen world...
From it's pride and vanity and lies and death...
And turning instead unto God...

That is why the first word of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is:

REPENT

And the second is:

BE BAPTIZED (into Christ)

Your salvation indeed utterly depends on God...
And you CAN throw it away...

IF
You teach a doctrine that tells man
That his actions have nothing to do with his attaining of salvation
That no matter what he does or fails to do, God doesn't care...
That God only cares about His PRESELECTIONS...
That his repentance means nothing to God for his salvatiton...
And that he will be saved or damned for eternity
Based solely on God's predestinational appointment or not...
That he can do whatever he wishes and he will still be saved or condemned...

THEN...

You will have One to answer to...

Because Christ's very words, recorded in Holy Writ, are:

...IF ANYONE IS WILLING (to follow Me)... (Matthew 16:24)

By teaching such a false doctrine of pre-selection you are denying the teaching of Christ Himself...

It is one's WILLINGNESS to follow Christ that is the ONLY determiner of WHOM Christ will SAVE...

Throw away that willingness, and there is NO SALVATION...

Arsenios


Arsenios

[RBerman]

IF
You teach a doctrine that tells man
That his actions have nothing to do with his attaining of salvation
That no matter what he does or fails to do, God doesn't care...
That God only cares about His PRESELECTIONS...
That his repentance means nothing to God for his salvatiton...
And that he will be saved or damned for eternity
Based solely on God's predestinational appointment or not...
That he can do whatever he wishes and he will still be saved or condemned...

THEN...

You will have One to answer to...

Because Christ's very words, recorded in Holy Writ, are:

...IF ANYONE IS WILLING (to follow Me)... (Matthew 16:24)

By teaching such a false doctrine of pre-selection you are denying the teaching of Christ Himself...

It is one's WILLINGNESS to follow Christ that is the ONLY determiner of WHOM Christ will SAVE...

Throw away that willingness, and there is NO SALVATION...

I have never harbored any illusions of convincing you that Calvinism was correct. This thread was supposed to be about, "If Calvinism is correct, then can Calvinists claim assurance of salvation?" Since the current discussion is not contributing to that topic, I withdraw.

[George Blaisdell]

I have never harbored any illusions of convincing you that Calvinism was correct.
This thread was supposed to be about, "If Calvinism is correct, then can Calvinists claim assurance of salvation?"
Since the current discussion is not contributing to that topic, I withdraw.

Fair enough...

Arsenios

[gooner]

I have assurance because I persevere in trusting that Christ is more than able to keep me despite my habitual sins. I trust in Him and not myself and anything good in me is all of Him. I have assurance because I am confident in Him. I can never have an assurance that is not based on remaining in the vine......is this remaining a "work"? I am not intellectually capable of wrestling with the mechanics of that question but frankly I don't care whether it's a work or not....God's "work" is to believe in the Christ.

[George Blaisdell]

I have assurance because I persevere...

Being really careful with what you say is a good idea...

The above is hard to separate from self assurance...

See how it presents?

Arsenios

[gooner]

but sometimes can we be a bit too careful ?

...putting it another way

Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all

children do not generally question their birth rights....but as we grow up we get proud.

[George Blaisdell]

but sometimes can we be a bit too careful ?

...putting it another way

Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all

children do not generally question their birth rights....but as we grow up we get proud.

Yes - The faith of a child who believes as he is told...

God bless you...

Arsenios