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Thread: The Qur'an, the Bible and Islam.

  1. #11
    tWebber
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    Its not approval from the koran Christians want or even need.

    It is correction of the gross and blatant misrepresentation the koran erroneously makes on the Biblical doctrine of the Trinity from sura 5/116. Since WHEN was the Trinity "The Father, Mother and the Son"? Not in the first Century AD but from the 7th - 8th century onwards in verses like the above.

    When a misrepresentation of fact is made in a court of law - that is perjury. That's exactly what your koran makes with that verse. When we bring it to light, you will desperately try to dismiss it due to blind faith and deceptive polemics. So the problem is not with any Christian but with you and the koranic deception.

    It is juvenile for you to claim otherwise.


    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    Its not Muslims that have a problem---Its Christians who have the problem with this....
    It is juvenile and simplistic to think in binary terms of either/or, black/white---the Quranic world-view is far more sophisticated.

    Muslims believe in the One God, and Jews do so too---what Christians think they believe---that is upto them.....


    In any case, why would a Christian need the approval of the Quran (or of Muslims) for their belief in the trinity?
    As a Muslim, I am not particularly concerned if a Christian (or other non-Muslim) claims my belief is false...their opinions do not effect my faith....

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    QURAN
    http://www.islam101.com/quran/yusufAli/

    142. We appointed for Moses thirty nights, and completed (the period) with ten (more): thus was completed the term (of communion) with his Lord, forty nights. And Moses had charged his brother Aaron (before he went up): "Act for me among my people: Do right, and follow not the way of those who do mischief."

    143. When Moses came to the place appointed by Us, and his Lord addressed him, He said: "O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon thee." Allah said: "By no means canst thou see Me (direct); But look upon the mount; if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see Me." When his Lord manifested His glory on the Mount, He made it as dust. And Moses fell down in a swoon. When he recovered his senses he said: "Glory be to Thee! to Thee I turn in repentance, and I am the first to believe."

    144. ((Allah)) said: "O Moses! I have chosen thee above (other) men, by the mission I (have given thee) and the words I (have spoken to thee): take then the (revelation) which I give thee, and be of those who give thanks."

    145. And We ordained laws for him in the tablets in all matters, both commanding and explaining all things, (and said): "Take and hold these with firmness, and enjoin thy people to hold fast by the best in the precepts: soon shall I show you the homes of the wicked,- (How they lie desolate)."

    146. Those who behave arrogantly on the earth in defiance of right - them will I turn away from My signs: Even if they see all the signs, they will not believe in them; and if they see the way of right conduct, they will not adopt it as the way; but if they see the way of error, that is the way they will adopt. For they have rejected our signs, and failed to take warning from them.

    147. Those who reject Our signs and the meeting in the Hereafter,- vain are their deeds: Can they expect to be rewarded except as they have wrought?

    148. The people of Moses made, in his absence, out of their ornaments, the image of calf, (for worship): it seemed to low: did they not see that it could neither speak to them, nor show them the way? They took it for worship and they did wrong.

    149. When they repented, and saw that they had erred, they said: "If our Lord have not mercy upon us and forgive us, we shall indeed be of those who perish."

    150. When Moses came back to his people, angry and grieved, he said: "Evil it is that ye have done in my place in my absence: did ye make haste to bring on the judgment of your Lord?" He put down the tablets, seized his brother by (the hair of) his head, and dragged him to him. Aaron said: "Son of my mother! the people did indeed reckon me as naught, and went near to slaying me! Make not the enemies rejoice over my misfortune, nor count thou me among the people of sin."

    151. Moses prayed: "O my Lord! forgive me and my brother! admit us to Thy mercy! for Thou art the Most Merciful of those who show mercy!"

    152. Those who took the calf (for worship) will indeed be overwhelmed with wrath from their Lord, and with shame in this life: thus do We recompense those who invent (falsehoods).

    153. But those who do wrong but repent thereafter and (truly) believe,- verily thy Lord is thereafter Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

    154. When the anger of Moses was appeased, he took up the tablets: in the writing thereon was guidance and Mercy for such as fear their Lord.

    155. And Moses chose seventy of his people for Our place of meeting: when they were seized with violent quaking, he prayed: "O my Lord! if it had been Thy will Thou could have destroyed, long before, both them and me: wouldst Thou destroy us for the deeds of the foolish ones among us? this is no more than Thy trial: by it Thou cause whom Thou wilt to stray, and Thou lead whom Thou wilt into the right path. Thou art our Protector: so forgive us and give us Thy mercy; for Thou art the best of those who forgive.

    156. "And ordain for us that which is good, in this life and in the Hereafter: for we have turned unto Thee." He said: "With My punishment I visit whom I will; but My mercy extends to all things. That (mercy) I shall ordain for those who do right, and practice regular charity, and those who believe in Our signs;-

    BIBLE
    The Golden Calf
    32 When the people saw that Moses was so long in coming down from the mountain, they gathered around Aaron and said, “Come, make us gods[a] who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who brought us up out of Egypt, we don’t know what has happened to him.”

    2 Aaron answered them, “Take off the gold earrings that your wives, your sons and your daughters are wearing, and bring them to me.”
    3 So all the people took off their earrings and brought them to Aaron.
    4 He took what they handed him and made it into an idol cast in the shape of a calf, fashioning it with a tool. Then they said, “These are your gods,[b] Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.”
    5 When Aaron saw this, he built an altar in front of the calf and announced, “Tomorrow there will be a festival to the Lord.”
    6 So the next day the people rose early and sacrificed burnt offerings and presented fellowship offerings. Afterward they sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in revelry.
    7 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go down, because your people, whom you brought up out of Egypt, have become corrupt.
    8 They have been quick to turn away from what I commanded them and have made themselves an idol cast in the shape of a calf. They have bowed down to it and sacrificed to it and have said, ‘These are your gods, Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.’
    9 “I have seen these people,” the Lord said to Moses, “and they are a stiff-necked people.
    10 Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation.”
    11 But Moses sought the favor of the Lord his God. “Lord,” he said, “why should your anger burn against your people, whom you brought out of Egypt with great power and a mighty hand?
    12 Why should the Egyptians say, ‘It was with evil intent that he brought them out, to kill them in the mountains and to wipe them off the face of the earth’? Turn from your fierce anger; relent and do not bring disaster on your people.
    13 Remember your servants Abraham, Isaac and Israel, to whom you swore by your own self: ‘I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and I will give your descendants all this land I promised them, and it will be their inheritance forever.’”
    14 Then the Lord relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened.
    15 Moses turned and went down the mountain with the two tablets of the covenant law in his hands. They were inscribed on both sides, front and back.
    16 The tablets were the work of God; the writing was the writing of God, engraved on the tablets.
    17 When Joshua heard the noise of the people shouting, he said to Moses, “There is the sound of war in the camp.”
    18 Moses replied:

    “It is not the sound of victory,
    it is not the sound of defeat;
    it is the sound of singing that I hear.”

    19 When Moses approached the camp and saw the calf and the dancing, his anger burned and he threw the tablets out of his hands, breaking them to pieces at the foot of the mountain.
    20 And he took the calf the people had made and burned it in the fire; then he ground it to powder, scattered it on the water and made the Israelites drink it.
    21 He said to Aaron, “What did these people do to you, that you led them into such great sin?”
    22 “Do not be angry, my lord,” Aaron answered. “You know how prone these people are to evil.
    23 They said to me, ‘Make us gods who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who brought us up out of Egypt, we don’t know what has happened to him.’
    24 So I told them, ‘Whoever has any gold jewelry, take it off.’ Then they gave me the gold, and I threw it into the fire, and out came this calf!”
    25 Moses saw that the people were running wild and that Aaron had let them get out of control and so become a laughingstock to their enemies.
    26 So he stood at the entrance to the camp and said, “Whoever is for the Lord, come to me.” And all the Levites rallied to him.
    27 Then he said to them, “This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.’”
    28 The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died.
    29 Then Moses said, “You have been set apart to the Lord today, for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day.”
    30 The next day Moses said to the people, “You have committed a great sin. But now I will go up to the Lord; perhaps I can make atonement for your sin.”
    31 So Moses went back to the Lord and said, “Oh, what a great sin these people have committed! They have made themselves gods of gold. 32 But now, please forgive their sin—but if not, then blot me out of the book you have written.”
    33 The Lord replied to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book.
    34 Now go, lead the people to the place I spoke of, and my angel will go before you. However, when the time comes for me to punish, I will punish them for their sin.”
    35 And the Lord struck the people with a plague because of what they did with the calf Aaron had made.
    siam, you left out some verses about the Golden Calf from the Qur'an:

    (Moses) said: And what hast thou to say, O Samiri? He said: I perceived what they perceive not, so I seized a handful from the footsteps of the messenger, and then threw it in. Thus my soul commended to me. S. 20:95-96 Pickthall

    He said: So surely We have tried your people after you, and the Samiri has led them astray. S. 20:85 Shakir

    Who was Samiri?

  3. #13
    tWebber
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    Christian3, this is one passage from the Koran that Muslims shy away from. Orthodox tafsir always accepted & taught this "samiri" as the Samaritan who conspired to build the golden calf.

    Samaritans in the time of Moshe (Moses) and Aaron are simply impossible - 700-800 years too early! Unless, of course, Allah invented time travel way back then 😂👍🤣

    This is just another chronological anachronism committed by the koran - there are others.

    That's why dawagandists like Siam and gang keep chanting the mantra that the koran "is not a history book", nor of science for that mattet 😏🙄😎

    Quote Originally Posted by Christian3 View Post
    siam, you left out some verses about the Golden Calf from the Qur'an:

    (Moses) said: And what hast thou to say, O Samiri? He said: I perceived what they perceive not, so I seized a handful from the footsteps of the messenger, and then threw it in. Thus my soul commended to me. S. 20:95-96 Pickthall

    He said: So surely We have tried your people after you, and the Samiri has led them astray. S. 20:85 Shakir

    Who was Samiri?

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
    Christian3, this is one passage from the Koran that Muslims shy away from. Orthodox tafsir always accepted & taught this "samiri" as the Samaritan who conspired to build the golden calf.

    Samaritans in the time of Moshe (Moses) and Aaron are simply impossible - 700-800 years too early! Unless, of course, Allah invented time travel way back then 😂👍🤣

    This is just another chronological anachronism committed by the koran - there are others.

    That's why dawagandists like Siam and gang keep chanting the mantra that the koran "is not a history book", nor of science for that mattet 😏🙄😎
    True that Samaritans did not exist at the time Aaron made the Golden Calf.

    Look at this from Sam Shamoun:

    "Throw out your calf-idol, O Samaria! My anger burns against them. How long will they be incapable of purity? They are from Israel! This calf-a craftsman has made it; it is not God. It will be broken in pieces, that calf of Samaria. They sow the wind and reap the whirlwind. The stalk has no head; it will produce no flour. Were it to yield grain, foreigners would swallow it up. Israel is swallowed up; now she is among the nations like a worthless thing. For they have gone up to Assyria like a wild donkey wandering alone. Ephraim has sold herself to lovers. Although they have sold themselves among the nations, I will now gather them together. They will begin to waste away under the oppression of the mighty king. Though Ephraim built many altars for sin offerings, these have become altars for sinning. I wrote for them the many things of my law, but they regarded them as something alien. They offer sacrifices given to me and they eat the meat, but the LORD is not pleased with them. Now he will remember their wickedness and punish their sins: They will return to Egypt. Israel has forgotten his Maker and built palaces; Judah has fortified many towns. But I will send fire upon their cities that will consume their fortresses." Hosea 8:5-14

    Samaria was the capital of the northern kingdom of Israel, also called Ephraim, which Jeroboam ruled:

    "Then Jeroboam fortified Shechem in the hill country of Ephraim and lived there. From there he went out and built up Peniel. Jeroboam thought to himself, ‘The kingdom will now likely revert to the house of David. If these people go up to offer sacrifices at the temple of the LORD in Jerusalem, they will again give their allegiance to their lord, Rehoboam king of Judah. They will kill me and return to King Rehoboam.’ After seeking advice, the king made two golden calves. He said to the people, ‘It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem. Here are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.’ One he set up in Bethel, and the other in Dan. And this thing became a sin; the people went even as far as Dan to worship the one there. Jeroboam built shrines on high places and appointed priests from all sorts of people, even though they were not Levites. He instituted a festival on the fifteenth day of the eighth month, like the festival held in Judah, and offered sacrifices on the altar. This he did in Bethel, sacrificing to the calves he had made. And at Bethel he also installed priests at the high places he had made. On the fifteenth day of the eighth month, a month of his own choosing, he offered sacrifices on the altar he had built at Bethel. So he instituted the festival for the Israelites and went up to the altar to make offerings." 1 Kings 12:25-33

    It appears that the author of the Quran confused the calf-making story of the Exodus with the above story of Jeroboam.

    What do you think, Dan?

  5. #15
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
    Christian3, this is one passage from the Koran that Muslims shy away from. Orthodox tafsir always accepted & taught this "samiri" as the Samaritan who conspired to build the golden calf.

    Samaritans in the time of Moshe (Moses) and Aaron are simply impossible - 700-800 years too early! Unless, of course, Allah invented time travel way back then 😂👍🤣

    This is just another chronological anachronism committed by the koran - there are others.

    That's why dawagandists like Siam and gang keep chanting the mantra that the koran "is not a history book", nor of science for that mattet 😏🙄😎
    I've seen more than a few claim that the qur'an teaches advanced/modern scientific principles which is immediately followed with the claim that since Muhammad couldn't have known this then the qur'an must be divine.

    Back before the crash the whole mountain/peg thing came out and I posted a fairly extensive rebuttal.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
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    tWebber Hypatia_Alexandria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Zebiri;743494
    It is [I
    correction [/I]of the gross and blatant misrepresentation the koran erroneously makes on the Biblical doctrine of the Trinity from sura 5/116.
    [my emphasis]

    There is no "Biblical doctrine of the Trinity". The word does not occur in the Bible. The concept of the Trinity is a much later Christian construct.
    "Fables should be taught as fables, myths as myths, and miracles as poetic fantasies."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    [my emphasis]

    There is no "Biblical doctrine of the Trinity". The word does not occur in the Bible. The concept of the Trinity is a much later Christian construct.
    Do you have any idea/theories why they settled on a "Trinitarian" Godhead? ---and not a dual (God/Son) or a quad (God, Word, Son, Spirit/Ghost/Dove) or even multiples---"Children of God"/God/Son/Dove...etc...etc?

    was it some arbitrary--"three sounds good" type of thing or was there some philosophy/purpose?

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    Comparision of the story of the calf Surah 7 v142-156 and Bible-Golden calf

    Quranic story begins with the scene of Moses "term" with God for 40 nights.
    Bible story here begins with the people feeling impatient with the long absence of Moses.

    Quranic story explains the mission of Moses (receive revealtion)
    Bible story shows discussion between Moses and God about the behavior of his followers

    Quranic story shows the nuance/balance between God's will and Human free-will
    Bible story mostly follows the actions of Moses and his followers

    Quranic story ends with God's mercy and forgiveness for those who make an error but repent
    Note---the tablets/Guidance is intact
    Bible story ends with God's wrath
    (Tablets are destroyed.)

    The Quranic story in this Surah comes at the tail end of various other stories of the "Prophets" and the main theme is to show that people "forget" about the One God and go astray. The purpose of Prophets/Guidance is so that people will "remember"/remembrance.

    Questions---
    What is the main theme of the Bible story?
    What function/purpose does it serve (philosophy)?
    What (if any) are the exegesis of this story?
    What (if any) theological significance is there in the story?

  9. #19
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    Yes, I do think you are right, Christian3. The koran has again confused, conflated and mixed up the Biblical stories. And it is not the first time it makes such errors.

    Not only has the author or editor of the koran confused the narratives of Hosea 8:5-14 with 1 Kings 12:25-33, they have conflated the two stories into one jumbled re-narration. No Samaritan existed during the time of Aaron because their community did not exist yet, until centuries later.

    There are other examples of confusions and mixed-up conflations in the koran as well - such as the Mary the mother of Jesus with Mary the 'sister of Aaron' in sura 19. Going by own criterion and 'yardstick of authenticity' the koran has proven itself to be flawed and factually dubious and one wonders if its Allah has any true knowledge of the facts of the Hebrew people, Israel or the Jews with accuracy.


    Quote Originally Posted by Christian3 View Post
    True that Samaritans did not exist at the time Aaron made the Golden Calf.

    Look at this from Sam Shamoun:

    "Throw out your calf-idol, O Samaria! My anger burns against them. How long will they be incapable of purity? They are from Israel! This calf-a craftsman has made it; it is not God. It will be broken in pieces, that calf of Samaria. They sow the wind and reap the whirlwind. The stalk has no head; it will produce no flour. Were it to yield grain, foreigners would swallow it up. Israel is swallowed up; now she is among the nations like a worthless thing. For they have gone up to Assyria like a wild donkey wandering alone. Ephraim has sold herself to lovers. Although they have sold themselves among the nations, I will now gather them together. They will begin to waste away under the oppression of the mighty king. Though Ephraim built many altars for sin offerings, these have become altars for sinning. I wrote for them the many things of my law, but they regarded them as something alien. They offer sacrifices given to me and they eat the meat, but the LORD is not pleased with them. Now he will remember their wickedness and punish their sins: They will return to Egypt. Israel has forgotten his Maker and built palaces; Judah has fortified many towns. But I will send fire upon their cities that will consume their fortresses." Hosea 8:5-14

    Samaria was the capital of the northern kingdom of Israel, also called Ephraim, which Jeroboam ruled:

    "Then Jeroboam fortified Shechem in the hill country of Ephraim and lived there. From there he went out and built up Peniel. Jeroboam thought to himself, ‘The kingdom will now likely revert to the house of David. If these people go up to offer sacrifices at the temple of the LORD in Jerusalem, they will again give their allegiance to their lord, Rehoboam king of Judah. They will kill me and return to King Rehoboam.’ After seeking advice, the king made two golden calves. He said to the people, ‘It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem. Here are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.’ One he set up in Bethel, and the other in Dan. And this thing became a sin; the people went even as far as Dan to worship the one there. Jeroboam built shrines on high places and appointed priests from all sorts of people, even though they were not Levites. He instituted a festival on the fifteenth day of the eighth month, like the festival held in Judah, and offered sacrifices on the altar. This he did in Bethel, sacrificing to the calves he had made. And at Bethel he also installed priests at the high places he had made. On the fifteenth day of the eighth month, a month of his own choosing, he offered sacrifices on the altar he had built at Bethel. So he instituted the festival for the Israelites and went up to the altar to make offerings." 1 Kings 12:25-33

    It appears that the author of the Quran confused the calf-making story of the Exodus with the above story of Jeroboam.

    What do you think, Dan?

  10. #20
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    We are not so much interested with the philosophy or philosophies behind or between the narratives of the Bible vs. the Koran, siam!

    When the later-arriving koran puts forth doubtful details of facts - which Christian3 had earlier pointed out to you and which you fail to address:-

    Christian3 said:- You (siam) left out some verses about the Golden Calf from the Qur'an:

    (Moses) said: And what hast thou to say, O Samiri? He said: I perceived what they perceive not, so I seized a handful from the footsteps of the messenger, and then threw it in. Thus my soul commended to me. S. 20:95-96 Pickthall

    He said: So surely We have tried your people after you, and the Samiri has led them astray. S. 20:85 Shakir

    Who was the "Samiri"? Alluded in sura 20/85 above??



    Take ALL the relevant koranic passages together, not just the ones you like to selectively pick and choose, to proselytize for islam, and S. 20/95-96 and S.20/85 mentioning the "Samaritan" are all part of the same koranic story! Who was "Samiri", then?



    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    Comparision of the story of the calf Surah 7 v142-156 and Bible-Golden calf

    Quranic story begins with the scene of Moses "term" with God for 40 nights.
    Bible story here begins with the people feeling impatient with the long absence of Moses.

    Quranic story explains the mission of Moses (receive revealtion)
    Bible story shows discussion between Moses and God about the behavior of his followers

    Quranic story shows the nuance/balance between God's will and Human free-will
    Bible story mostly follows the actions of Moses and his followers

    Quranic story ends with God's mercy and forgiveness for those who make an error but repent
    Note---the tablets/Guidance is intact
    Bible story ends with God's wrath
    (Tablets are destroyed.)

    The Quranic story in this Surah comes at the tail end of various other stories of the "Prophets" and the main theme is to show that people "forget" about the One God and go astray. The purpose of Prophets/Guidance is so that people will "remember"/remembrance.

    Questions---
    What is the main theme of the Bible story?
    What function/purpose does it serve (philosophy)?
    What (if any) are the exegesis of this story?
    What (if any) theological significance is there in the story?

  11. Amen Christian3 amen'd this post.

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