The Qur'an, the Bible and Islam.

[37818]

Beginning with the Torah the word of God says,

Deuteronomy 8:3,
. . . know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every [word] that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live. . . .

[siam]

Its not Muslims that have a problem---Its Christians who have the problem with this....
It is juvenile and simplistic to think in binary terms of either/or, black/white---the Quranic world-view is far more sophisticated.

Muslims believe in the One God, and Jews do so too---what Christians think they believe---that is upto them.....


In any case, why would a Christian need the approval of the Quran (or of Muslims) for their belief in the trinity?
As a Muslim, I am not particularly concerned if a Christian (or other non-Muslim) claims my belief is false...their opinions do not effect my faith....

[37818]

Its not Muslims that have a problem---Its Christians who have the problem with this....
It is juvenile and simplistic to think in binary terms of either/or, black/white---the Quranic world-view is far more sophisticated.

Muslims believe in the One God, and Jews do so too---what Christians think they believe---that is upto them.....


In any case, why would a Christian need the approval of the Quran (or of Muslims) for their belief in the trinity?
As a Muslim, I am not particularly concerned if a Christian (or other non-Muslim) claims my belief is false...their opinions do not effect my faith....

My friend, there are the laws of logic, as I presume you know. Sophisticated truth can be broken down to its simple components. Binary logic is basic in that something cannot both be true and false - unless it is somehow comprised of two different things - where for one of the things it is true and the other thing it needs to be false. And both things belonging to one thing. Otherwise the law of the excluded middle would mean that the one thing cannot be true.

You cannot have a two sided triangle. Or a three sided square. These are obvious non sequiturs. Absurdities.

Take note, I introduced the video with a citation from the Torah. The Prophet Jesus cites (see Matthew 4:4) that reference against Satan in dealing with that temptation, countering Satan's lie.

My point in doing so, the Qur'an is believed by many to be God's holy word, is it not? Well here is the deal, Christians to be obedient to the teaching of Jesus being the Christ must live by the truths of the Torah and the Gospel. And on the premise the Qur'an is the word of God, must live by its words too. Unbelief does not negate the truth God's word one must live by.

Now just saying what you did, needs to be helpful. If you have further truth - be a guide.

The Christian New Covenant is built from the Old (Jeremiah 31:31-34).

Untangle the alleged dilemma. Show that it is really not a dilemma. It is a matter of truth. What is and what is not.

[siam]

My point in doing so, the Qur'an is believed by many to be God's holy word, is it not? Well here is the deal, Christians to be obedient to the teaching of Jesus being the Christ must live by the truths of the Torah and the Gospel. And on the premise the Qur'an is the word of God, must live by its words too. Unbelief does not negate the truth God's word one must live by.

Untangle the alleged dilemma. Show that it is really not a dilemma. It is a matter of truth. What is and what is not.

In the Quran, Jesus Christ advises kindness, respect for Parents---I don't know if the NT does or not---but for this example, let us presume that respect for Parents is a value we both share.
some ways that this respect could be shown is to not harm our parents and to protect them from harm by others, to take care of their needs, to try to please them....etc...

Quran 17: 23,24
And your Lord has decreed that you worship none but Him. And that you be dutiful to your parents. If one of them or both of them attain old age in your life, say not to them a word of disrespect, nor shout at them but address them in terms of honour.

And lower unto them the wing of submission and humility through mercy, and say: "My Lord! Bestow on them Your Mercy as they did bring me up when I was small."

But what happens when our Parents "do wrong" or their actions might harm others or they ask us to do wrong/harm?
To uphold Justice (with compassion and mercy) is the way of respecting and honoring our Parents...to guide them from going astray, or if they have already, then to encourage repentance...or if they ask us to do wrong---then to refuse.

Quran Surah 4: 135
O you who believe! stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to God, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for God can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest you swerve, and if you distort (justice) or decline to do justice, surely God is well-acquainted with all that ye do.

These 2 values are not contradictory--they are complementary.
likewise, where the previous scriptures "go astray" or fall into error, the Quran must uphold truth and guide towards the right way.

For us Muslims, we cannot give assent to polytheism, idolatry, injustice or inequality---even if Christians, with the best of intentions, try to convince us to do so....we must refuse.

[37818]

In the Quran, Jesus Christ advises kindness, respect for Parents---I don't know if the NT does or not---but for this example, let us presume that respect for Parents is a value we both share.
some ways that this respect could be shown is to not harm our parents and to protect them from harm by others, to take care of their needs, to try to please them....etc...

Quran 17: 23,24
And your Lord has decreed that you worship none but Him. And that you be dutiful to your parents. If one of them or both of them attain old age in your life, say not to them a word of disrespect, nor shout at them but address them in terms of honour.

And lower unto them the wing of submission and humility through mercy, and say: "My Lord! Bestow on them Your Mercy as they did bring me up when I was small."

But what happens when our Parents "do wrong" or their actions might harm others or they ask us to do wrong/harm?
To uphold Justice (with compassion and mercy) is the way of respecting and honoring our Parents...to guide them from going astray, or if they have already, then to encourage repentance...or if they ask us to do wrong---then to refuse.

Quran Surah 4: 135
O you who believe! stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to God, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for God can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest you swerve, and if you distort (justice) or decline to do justice, surely God is well-acquainted with all that ye do.

These 2 values are not contradictory--they are complementary.
likewise, where the previous scriptures "go astray" or fall into error, the Quran must uphold truth and guide towards the right way.

Changes the subject. And does not untangle the alleged dilemma.

For us Muslims, we cannot give assent to polytheism, idolatry, injustice or inequality---even if Christians, with the best of intentions, try to convince us to do so....we must refuse.

Genuine Christianity teaches against polytheism, idolatry and injustice.

[Oscar Bap]

Is this topic still active?

[Cerebrum123]

Is this topic still active?

No, the last post before yours was in 2017. If you look just above someone's name on a post you can see the date and time it was posted.

[siam]

Is this topic still active?

there are convergences and divergence between the Quran and Bible---it can be a subject of exploration.

[Dan Zebiri]

Why not? it still is, Oscar, feel free to contribute!

Is this topic still active?

[siam]

QURAN
http://www.islam101.com/quran/yusufAli/

142. We appointed for Moses thirty nights, and completed (the period) with ten (more): thus was completed the term (of communion) with his Lord, forty nights. And Moses had charged his brother Aaron (before he went up): "Act for me among my people: Do right, and follow not the way of those who do mischief."

143. When Moses came to the place appointed by Us, and his Lord addressed him, He said: "O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon thee." Allah said: "By no means canst thou see Me (direct); But look upon the mount; if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see Me." When his Lord manifested His glory on the Mount, He made it as dust. And Moses fell down in a swoon. When he recovered his senses he said: "Glory be to Thee! to Thee I turn in repentance, and I am the first to believe."

144. ((Allah)) said: "O Moses! I have chosen thee above (other) men, by the mission I (have given thee) and the words I (have spoken to thee): take then the (revelation) which I give thee, and be of those who give thanks."

145. And We ordained laws for him in the tablets in all matters, both commanding and explaining all things, (and said): "Take and hold these with firmness, and enjoin thy people to hold fast by the best in the precepts: soon shall I show you the homes of the wicked,- (How they lie desolate)."

146. Those who behave arrogantly on the earth in defiance of right - them will I turn away from My signs: Even if they see all the signs, they will not believe in them; and if they see the way of right conduct, they will not adopt it as the way; but if they see the way of error, that is the way they will adopt. For they have rejected our signs, and failed to take warning from them.

147. Those who reject Our signs and the meeting in the Hereafter,- vain are their deeds: Can they expect to be rewarded except as they have wrought?

148. The people of Moses made, in his absence, out of their ornaments, the image of calf, (for worship): it seemed to low: did they not see that it could neither speak to them, nor show them the way? They took it for worship and they did wrong.

149. When they repented, and saw that they had erred, they said: "If our Lord have not mercy upon us and forgive us, we shall indeed be of those who perish."

150. When Moses came back to his people, angry and grieved, he said: "Evil it is that ye have done in my place in my absence: did ye make haste to bring on the judgment of your Lord?" He put down the tablets, seized his brother by (the hair of) his head, and dragged him to him. Aaron said: "Son of my mother! the people did indeed reckon me as naught, and went near to slaying me! Make not the enemies rejoice over my misfortune, nor count thou me among the people of sin."

151. Moses prayed: "O my Lord! forgive me and my brother! admit us to Thy mercy! for Thou art the Most Merciful of those who show mercy!"

152. Those who took the calf (for worship) will indeed be overwhelmed with wrath from their Lord, and with shame in this life: thus do We recompense those who invent (falsehoods).

153. But those who do wrong but repent thereafter and (truly) believe,- verily thy Lord is thereafter Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

154. When the anger of Moses was appeased, he took up the tablets: in the writing thereon was guidance and Mercy for such as fear their Lord.

155. And Moses chose seventy of his people for Our place of meeting: when they were seized with violent quaking, he prayed: "O my Lord! if it had been Thy will Thou could have destroyed, long before, both them and me: wouldst Thou destroy us for the deeds of the foolish ones among us? this is no more than Thy trial: by it Thou cause whom Thou wilt to stray, and Thou lead whom Thou wilt into the right path. Thou art our Protector: so forgive us and give us Thy mercy; for Thou art the best of those who forgive.

156. "And ordain for us that which is good, in this life and in the Hereafter: for we have turned unto Thee." He said: "With My punishment I visit whom I will; but My mercy extends to all things. That (mercy) I shall ordain for those who do right, and practice regular charity, and those who believe in Our signs;-

BIBLE[b]

[Dan Zebiri]

Its not approval from the koran Christians want or even need.

It is correction of the gross and blatant misrepresentation the koran erroneously makes on the Biblical doctrine of the Trinity from sura 5/116. Since WHEN was the Trinity "The Father, Mother and the Son"? Not in the first Century AD but from the 7th - 8th century onwards in verses like the above.

When a misrepresentation of fact is made in a court of law - that is perjury. That's exactly what your koran makes with that verse. When we bring it to light, you will desperately try to dismiss it due to blind faith and deceptive polemics. So the problem is not with any Christian but with you and the koranic deception.

It is juvenile for you to claim otherwise.

Its not Muslims that have a problem---Its Christians who have the problem with this....
It is juvenile and simplistic to think in binary terms of either/or, black/white---the Quranic world-view is far more sophisticated.

Muslims believe in the One God, and Jews do so too---what Christians think they believe---that is upto them.....


In any case, why would a Christian need the approval of the Quran (or of Muslims) for their belief in the trinity?
As a Muslim, I am not particularly concerned if a Christian (or other non-Muslim) claims my belief is false...their opinions do not effect my faith....

[Christian3]

QURAN
http://www.islam101.com/quran/yusufAli/

142. We appointed for Moses thirty nights, and completed (the period) with ten (more): thus was completed the term (of communion) with his Lord, forty nights. And Moses had charged his brother Aaron (before he went up): "Act for me among my people: Do right, and follow not the way of those who do mischief."

143. When Moses came to the place appointed by Us, and his Lord addressed him, He said: "O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon thee." Allah said: "By no means canst thou see Me (direct); But look upon the mount; if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see Me." When his Lord manifested His glory on the Mount, He made it as dust. And Moses fell down in a swoon. When he recovered his senses he said: "Glory be to Thee! to Thee I turn in repentance, and I am the first to believe."

144. ((Allah)) said: "O Moses! I have chosen thee above (other) men, by the mission I (have given thee) and the words I (have spoken to thee): take then the (revelation) which I give thee, and be of those who give thanks."

145. And We ordained laws for him in the tablets in all matters, both commanding and explaining all things, (and said): "Take and hold these with firmness, and enjoin thy people to hold fast by the best in the precepts: soon shall I show you the homes of the wicked,- (How they lie desolate)."

146. Those who behave arrogantly on the earth in defiance of right - them will I turn away from My signs: Even if they see all the signs, they will not believe in them; and if they see the way of right conduct, they will not adopt it as the way; but if they see the way of error, that is the way they will adopt. For they have rejected our signs, and failed to take warning from them.

147. Those who reject Our signs and the meeting in the Hereafter,- vain are their deeds: Can they expect to be rewarded except as they have wrought?

148. The people of Moses made, in his absence, out of their ornaments, the image of calf, (for worship): it seemed to low: did they not see that it could neither speak to them, nor show them the way? They took it for worship and they did wrong.

149. When they repented, and saw that they had erred, they said: "If our Lord have not mercy upon us and forgive us, we shall indeed be of those who perish."

150. When Moses came back to his people, angry and grieved, he said: "Evil it is that ye have done in my place in my absence: did ye make haste to bring on the judgment of your Lord?" He put down the tablets, seized his brother by (the hair of) his head, and dragged him to him. Aaron said: "Son of my mother! the people did indeed reckon me as naught, and went near to slaying me! Make not the enemies rejoice over my misfortune, nor count thou me among the people of sin."

151. Moses prayed: "O my Lord! forgive me and my brother! admit us to Thy mercy! for Thou art the Most Merciful of those who show mercy!"

152. Those who took the calf (for worship) will indeed be overwhelmed with wrath from their Lord, and with shame in this life: thus do We recompense those who invent (falsehoods).

153. But those who do wrong but repent thereafter and (truly) believe,- verily thy Lord is thereafter Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

154. When the anger of Moses was appeased, he took up the tablets: in the writing thereon was guidance and Mercy for such as fear their Lord.

155. And Moses chose seventy of his people for Our place of meeting: when they were seized with violent quaking, he prayed: "O my Lord! if it had been Thy will Thou could have destroyed, long before, both them and me: wouldst Thou destroy us for the deeds of the foolish ones among us? this is no more than Thy trial: by it Thou cause whom Thou wilt to stray, and Thou lead whom Thou wilt into the right path. Thou art our Protector: so forgive us and give us Thy mercy; for Thou art the best of those who forgive.

156. "And ordain for us that which is good, in this life and in the Hereafter: for we have turned unto Thee." He said: "With My punishment I visit whom I will; but My mercy extends to all things. That (mercy) I shall ordain for those who do right, and practice regular charity, and those who believe in Our signs;-

BIBLE[b]

siam, you left out some verses about the Golden Calf from the Qur'an:

(Moses) said: And what hast thou to say, O Samiri? He said: I perceived what they perceive not, so I seized a handful from the footsteps of the messenger, and then threw it in. Thus my soul commended to me. S. 20:95-96 Pickthall

He said: So surely We have tried your people after you, and the Samiri has led them astray. S. 20:85 Shakir

Who was Samiri?

[Dan Zebiri]

Christian3, this is one passage from the Koran that Muslims shy away from. Orthodox tafsir always accepted & taught this "samiri" as the Samaritan who conspired to build the golden calf.

Samaritans in the time of Moshe (Moses) and Aaron are simply impossible - 700-800 years too early! Unless, of course, Allah invented time travel way back then 😂👍🤣

This is just another chronological anachronism committed by the koran - there are others.

That's why dawagandists like Siam and gang keep chanting the mantra that the koran "is not a history book", nor of science for that mattet 😏🙄😎

siam, you left out some verses about the Golden Calf from the Qur'an:

(Moses) said: And what hast thou to say, O Samiri? He said: I perceived what they perceive not, so I seized a handful from the footsteps of the messenger, and then threw it in. Thus my soul commended to me. S. 20:95-96 Pickthall

He said: So surely We have tried your people after you, and the Samiri has led them astray. S. 20:85 Shakir

Who was Samiri?

[Christian3]

Christian3, this is one passage from the Koran that Muslims shy away from. Orthodox tafsir always accepted & taught this "samiri" as the Samaritan who conspired to build the golden calf.

Samaritans in the time of Moshe (Moses) and Aaron are simply impossible - 700-800 years too early! Unless, of course, Allah invented time travel way back then 😂👍🤣

This is just another chronological anachronism committed by the koran - there are others.

That's why dawagandists like Siam and gang keep chanting the mantra that the koran "is not a history book", nor of science for that mattet 😏🙄😎

[rogue06]

Christian3, this is one passage from the Koran that Muslims shy away from. Orthodox tafsir always accepted & taught this "samiri" as the Samaritan who conspired to build the golden calf.

Samaritans in the time of Moshe (Moses) and Aaron are simply impossible - 700-800 years too early! Unless, of course, Allah invented time travel way back then 😂👍🤣

This is just another chronological anachronism committed by the koran - there are others.

That's why dawagandists like Siam and gang keep chanting the mantra that the koran "is not a history book", nor of science for that mattet 😏🙄😎

I've seen more than a few claim that the qur'an teaches advanced/modern scientific principles which is immediately followed with the claim that since Muhammad couldn't have known this then the qur'an must be divine.

Back before the crash the whole mountain/peg thing came out and I posted a fairly extensive rebuttal.