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Thread: The Qur'an, the Bible and Islam.

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    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    The Qur'an, the Bible and Islam.

    Beginning with the Torah the word of God says,
    Deuteronomy 8:3,
    . . . know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every [word] that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live. . . .




    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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    tWebber
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    Its not Muslims that have a problem---Its Christians who have the problem with this....
    It is juvenile and simplistic to think in binary terms of either/or, black/white---the Quranic world-view is far more sophisticated.

    Muslims believe in the One God, and Jews do so too---what Christians think they believe---that is upto them.....


    In any case, why would a Christian need the approval of the Quran (or of Muslims) for their belief in the trinity?
    As a Muslim, I am not particularly concerned if a Christian (or other non-Muslim) claims my belief is false...their opinions do not effect my faith....
    Last edited by siam; 07-04-2017 at 08:43 PM.

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    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    Its not Muslims that have a problem---Its Christians who have the problem with this....
    It is juvenile and simplistic to think in binary terms of either/or, black/white---the Quranic world-view is far more sophisticated.

    Muslims believe in the One God, and Jews do so too---what Christians think they believe---that is upto them.....


    In any case, why would a Christian need the approval of the Quran (or of Muslims) for their belief in the trinity?
    As a Muslim, I am not particularly concerned if a Christian (or other non-Muslim) claims my belief is false...their opinions do not effect my faith....
    My friend, there are the laws of logic, as I presume you know. Sophisticated truth can be broken down to its simple components. Binary logic is basic in that something cannot both be true and false - unless it is somehow comprised of two different things - where for one of the things it is true and the other thing it needs to be false. And both things belonging to one thing. Otherwise the law of the excluded middle would mean that the one thing cannot be true.

    You cannot have a two sided triangle. Or a three sided square. These are obvious non sequiturs. Absurdities.

    Take note, I introduced the video with a citation from the Torah. The Prophet Jesus cites (see Matthew 4:4) that reference against Satan in dealing with that temptation, countering Satan's lie.

    My point in doing so, the Qur'an is believed by many to be God's holy word, is it not? Well here is the deal, Christians to be obedient to the teaching of Jesus being the Christ must live by the truths of the Torah and the Gospel. And on the premise the Qur'an is the word of God, must live by its words too. Unbelief does not negate the truth God's word one must live by.

    Now just saying what you did, needs to be helpful. If you have further truth - be a guide.

    The Christian New Covenant is built from the Old (Jeremiah 31:31-34).

    Untangle the alleged dilemma. Show that it is really not a dilemma. It is a matter of truth. What is and what is not.
    Last edited by 37818; 07-05-2017 at 06:40 AM.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    My point in doing so, the Qur'an is believed by many to be God's holy word, is it not? Well here is the deal, Christians to be obedient to the teaching of Jesus being the Christ must live by the truths of the Torah and the Gospel. And on the premise the Qur'an is the word of God, must live by its words too. Unbelief does not negate the truth God's word one must live by.

    Untangle the alleged dilemma. Show that it is really not a dilemma. It is a matter of truth. What is and what is not.
    In the Quran, Jesus Christ advises kindness, respect for Parents---I don't know if the NT does or not---but for this example, let us presume that respect for Parents is a value we both share.
    some ways that this respect could be shown is to not harm our parents and to protect them from harm by others, to take care of their needs, to try to please them....etc...

    Quran 17: 23,24
    And your Lord has decreed that you worship none but Him. And that you be dutiful to your parents. If one of them or both of them attain old age in your life, say not to them a word of disrespect, nor shout at them but address them in terms of honour.

    And lower unto them the wing of submission and humility through mercy, and say: "My Lord! Bestow on them Your Mercy as they did bring me up when I was small."


    But what happens when our Parents "do wrong" or their actions might harm others or they ask us to do wrong/harm?
    To uphold Justice (with compassion and mercy) is the way of respecting and honoring our Parents...to guide them from going astray, or if they have already, then to encourage repentance...or if they ask us to do wrong---then to refuse.

    Quran Surah 4: 135
    O you who believe! stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to God, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for God can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest you swerve, and if you distort (justice) or decline to do justice, surely God is well-acquainted with all that ye do.

    These 2 values are not contradictory--they are complementary.
    likewise, where the previous scriptures "go astray" or fall into error, the Quran must uphold truth and guide towards the right way.

    For us Muslims, we cannot give assent to polytheism, idolatry, injustice or inequality---even if Christians, with the best of intentions, try to convince us to do so....we must refuse.

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    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    In the Quran, Jesus Christ advises kindness, respect for Parents---I don't know if the NT does or not---but for this example, let us presume that respect for Parents is a value we both share.
    some ways that this respect could be shown is to not harm our parents and to protect them from harm by others, to take care of their needs, to try to please them....etc...

    Quran 17: 23,24
    And your Lord has decreed that you worship none but Him. And that you be dutiful to your parents. If one of them or both of them attain old age in your life, say not to them a word of disrespect, nor shout at them but address them in terms of honour.

    And lower unto them the wing of submission and humility through mercy, and say: "My Lord! Bestow on them Your Mercy as they did bring me up when I was small."


    But what happens when our Parents "do wrong" or their actions might harm others or they ask us to do wrong/harm?
    To uphold Justice (with compassion and mercy) is the way of respecting and honoring our Parents...to guide them from going astray, or if they have already, then to encourage repentance...or if they ask us to do wrong---then to refuse.

    Quran Surah 4: 135
    O you who believe! stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to God, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for God can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest you swerve, and if you distort (justice) or decline to do justice, surely God is well-acquainted with all that ye do.

    These 2 values are not contradictory--they are complementary.
    likewise, where the previous scriptures "go astray" or fall into error, the Quran must uphold truth and guide towards the right way.
    Changes the subject. And does not untangle the alleged dilemma.
    For us Muslims, we cannot give assent to polytheism, idolatry, injustice or inequality---even if Christians, with the best of intentions, try to convince us to do so....we must refuse.
    Genuine Christianity teaches against polytheism, idolatry and injustice.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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    Is this topic still active?

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    Professor Cerebrum123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oscar Bap View Post
    Is this topic still active?
    No, the last post before yours was in 2017. If you look just above someone's name on a post you can see the date and time it was posted.

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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oscar Bap View Post
    Is this topic still active?
    there are convergences and divergence between the Quran and Bible---it can be a subject of exploration.

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    tWebber
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    Why not? it still is, Oscar, feel free to contribute!



    Quote Originally Posted by Oscar Bap View Post
    Is this topic still active?

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    QURAN
    http://www.islam101.com/quran/yusufAli/

    142. We appointed for Moses thirty nights, and completed (the period) with ten (more): thus was completed the term (of communion) with his Lord, forty nights. And Moses had charged his brother Aaron (before he went up): "Act for me among my people: Do right, and follow not the way of those who do mischief."

    143. When Moses came to the place appointed by Us, and his Lord addressed him, He said: "O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon thee." Allah said: "By no means canst thou see Me (direct); But look upon the mount; if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see Me." When his Lord manifested His glory on the Mount, He made it as dust. And Moses fell down in a swoon. When he recovered his senses he said: "Glory be to Thee! to Thee I turn in repentance, and I am the first to believe."

    144. ((Allah)) said: "O Moses! I have chosen thee above (other) men, by the mission I (have given thee) and the words I (have spoken to thee): take then the (revelation) which I give thee, and be of those who give thanks."

    145. And We ordained laws for him in the tablets in all matters, both commanding and explaining all things, (and said): "Take and hold these with firmness, and enjoin thy people to hold fast by the best in the precepts: soon shall I show you the homes of the wicked,- (How they lie desolate)."

    146. Those who behave arrogantly on the earth in defiance of right - them will I turn away from My signs: Even if they see all the signs, they will not believe in them; and if they see the way of right conduct, they will not adopt it as the way; but if they see the way of error, that is the way they will adopt. For they have rejected our signs, and failed to take warning from them.

    147. Those who reject Our signs and the meeting in the Hereafter,- vain are their deeds: Can they expect to be rewarded except as they have wrought?

    148. The people of Moses made, in his absence, out of their ornaments, the image of calf, (for worship): it seemed to low: did they not see that it could neither speak to them, nor show them the way? They took it for worship and they did wrong.

    149. When they repented, and saw that they had erred, they said: "If our Lord have not mercy upon us and forgive us, we shall indeed be of those who perish."

    150. When Moses came back to his people, angry and grieved, he said: "Evil it is that ye have done in my place in my absence: did ye make haste to bring on the judgment of your Lord?" He put down the tablets, seized his brother by (the hair of) his head, and dragged him to him. Aaron said: "Son of my mother! the people did indeed reckon me as naught, and went near to slaying me! Make not the enemies rejoice over my misfortune, nor count thou me among the people of sin."

    151. Moses prayed: "O my Lord! forgive me and my brother! admit us to Thy mercy! for Thou art the Most Merciful of those who show mercy!"

    152. Those who took the calf (for worship) will indeed be overwhelmed with wrath from their Lord, and with shame in this life: thus do We recompense those who invent (falsehoods).

    153. But those who do wrong but repent thereafter and (truly) believe,- verily thy Lord is thereafter Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

    154. When the anger of Moses was appeased, he took up the tablets: in the writing thereon was guidance and Mercy for such as fear their Lord.

    155. And Moses chose seventy of his people for Our place of meeting: when they were seized with violent quaking, he prayed: "O my Lord! if it had been Thy will Thou could have destroyed, long before, both them and me: wouldst Thou destroy us for the deeds of the foolish ones among us? this is no more than Thy trial: by it Thou cause whom Thou wilt to stray, and Thou lead whom Thou wilt into the right path. Thou art our Protector: so forgive us and give us Thy mercy; for Thou art the best of those who forgive.

    156. "And ordain for us that which is good, in this life and in the Hereafter: for we have turned unto Thee." He said: "With My punishment I visit whom I will; but My mercy extends to all things. That (mercy) I shall ordain for those who do right, and practice regular charity, and those who believe in Our signs;-

    BIBLE
    The Golden Calf
    32 When the people saw that Moses was so long in coming down from the mountain, they gathered around Aaron and said, “Come, make us gods[a] who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who brought us up out of Egypt, we don’t know what has happened to him.”

    2 Aaron answered them, “Take off the gold earrings that your wives, your sons and your daughters are wearing, and bring them to me.”
    3 So all the people took off their earrings and brought them to Aaron.
    4 He took what they handed him and made it into an idol cast in the shape of a calf, fashioning it with a tool. Then they said, “These are your gods,[b] Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.”
    5 When Aaron saw this, he built an altar in front of the calf and announced, “Tomorrow there will be a festival to the Lord.”
    6 So the next day the people rose early and sacrificed burnt offerings and presented fellowship offerings. Afterward they sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in revelry.
    7 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go down, because your people, whom you brought up out of Egypt, have become corrupt.
    8 They have been quick to turn away from what I commanded them and have made themselves an idol cast in the shape of a calf. They have bowed down to it and sacrificed to it and have said, ‘These are your gods, Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.’
    9 “I have seen these people,” the Lord said to Moses, “and they are a stiff-necked people.
    10 Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation.”
    11 But Moses sought the favor of the Lord his God. “Lord,” he said, “why should your anger burn against your people, whom you brought out of Egypt with great power and a mighty hand?
    12 Why should the Egyptians say, ‘It was with evil intent that he brought them out, to kill them in the mountains and to wipe them off the face of the earth’? Turn from your fierce anger; relent and do not bring disaster on your people.
    13 Remember your servants Abraham, Isaac and Israel, to whom you swore by your own self: ‘I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and I will give your descendants all this land I promised them, and it will be their inheritance forever.’”
    14 Then the Lord relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened.
    15 Moses turned and went down the mountain with the two tablets of the covenant law in his hands. They were inscribed on both sides, front and back.
    16 The tablets were the work of God; the writing was the writing of God, engraved on the tablets.
    17 When Joshua heard the noise of the people shouting, he said to Moses, “There is the sound of war in the camp.”
    18 Moses replied:

    “It is not the sound of victory,
    it is not the sound of defeat;
    it is the sound of singing that I hear.”

    19 When Moses approached the camp and saw the calf and the dancing, his anger burned and he threw the tablets out of his hands, breaking them to pieces at the foot of the mountain.
    20 And he took the calf the people had made and burned it in the fire; then he ground it to powder, scattered it on the water and made the Israelites drink it.
    21 He said to Aaron, “What did these people do to you, that you led them into such great sin?”
    22 “Do not be angry, my lord,” Aaron answered. “You know how prone these people are to evil.
    23 They said to me, ‘Make us gods who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who brought us up out of Egypt, we don’t know what has happened to him.’
    24 So I told them, ‘Whoever has any gold jewelry, take it off.’ Then they gave me the gold, and I threw it into the fire, and out came this calf!”
    25 Moses saw that the people were running wild and that Aaron had let them get out of control and so become a laughingstock to their enemies.
    26 So he stood at the entrance to the camp and said, “Whoever is for the Lord, come to me.” And all the Levites rallied to him.
    27 Then he said to them, “This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.’”
    28 The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died.
    29 Then Moses said, “You have been set apart to the Lord today, for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day.”
    30 The next day Moses said to the people, “You have committed a great sin. But now I will go up to the Lord; perhaps I can make atonement for your sin.”
    31 So Moses went back to the Lord and said, “Oh, what a great sin these people have committed! They have made themselves gods of gold. 32 But now, please forgive their sin—but if not, then blot me out of the book you have written.”
    33 The Lord replied to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book.
    34 Now go, lead the people to the place I spoke of, and my angel will go before you. However, when the time comes for me to punish, I will punish them for their sin.”
    35 And the Lord struck the people with a plague because of what they did with the calf Aaron had made.

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