Fanatics & Fundamentalists

[seanD]

I gave more of an "exegetical" approach earlier on in the discussion. I only took the extreme route and used anti-world passages in order to counter the opposite extreme, which denies those passages. And it wasn't just directed at what she said in that one post.

Being that I'm careful not to quote scripture out of context (since this irks me to no end when others do it), I doubt you could find any other meaning that contradicts what I've been arguing here. Nowhere in scripture does it say we're commanded to heal the world, and most scripture directly contradicts that view. You're also incorrect about science and technology's impact on our society. That doesn't mean science and technology itself is evil. But when you give a loaded AR-15 to a wild chimpanzee, then chances are, you're gonna have some serious consequences.

[Scrawly]

It's hard to get a grip on what you're defining as "fanatical." The preachers in the videos you posted didn't really say anything about science per se. They were making more of a general statement about worldly involvement. The problem is not so much being involved with a scientific and technological world. The problem is being involved in a predominantly secular world, and I think this is the perspective they were addressing it from.

I am using the videos I posted to give definition to "fanatical". My issue with such preaching is that it castigates human progress. So, how many of the founding fathers of science were of the fanatical flavor as Paul Washer and Tim Conway?

[Scrawly]

Do you listen to their podcast? It is excellent and very well balanced.

Yeah it's a great show. Maybe I can even call in regarding this issue. So what did you think of those 3 videos I posted?

[Dee Dee Warren]

Dead serious question

Do you wear deodorant?

This is not a joke, I am going somewhere with this.

[Dee Dee Warren]

I think they are whackadoodle

First guy, hmmm don't love anything in the world?

Compare to for God so loved the world....


Goes to show that merely pointing at the word world and assumely it means in context what our Christianese says is futile

Does he Tim not love ANYTHING? what about his family? A pet? Air conditioning? Toilet paper?

I bet he does. I bet he loves a lot of things, that chair he say on looked comfy

[Chrawnus]

I think one has to differentiate between the world as creation, which Christ came to redeem, as opposed to the concept of the world as being in opposition to God. God obviously loves the world if it's understood in the first sense (and humans specifically), but not if it's understood in the latter sense, like in Joh 15:18-19, 16:33, 17:14-16. . One should be careful not to mix up the two concepts when reading the Bible.

[Scrawly]

Dead serious question

Do you wear deodorant?

This is not a joke, I am going somewhere with this.

If this is for me, then yup I wear deodorant.

[Scrawly]

I think they are whackadoodle

First guy, hmmm don't love anything in the world?

Compare to for God so loved the world....


Goes to show that merely pointing at the word world and assumely it means in context what our Christianese says is futile

Does he Tim not love ANYTHING? what about his family? A pet? Air conditioning? Toilet paper?

I bet he does. I bet he loves a lot of things, that chair he say on looked comfy

I think Tim would say we can enjoy certain things, but we ought not be engrossed in them nor consumed by them as if they have ultimate significance because in comparison eternal things are, well, eternal things. Jesus also did say that if you do not hate your mother and father, yes even your own life, you cannot be my disciple. Therefore, we are to love God and the things of God infinitely more than anything in this material world. In my view such Biblical teaching logically leads us to regard this world as a lump awaiting disposal and contributing to that lump is ultimately unwise when we factor in eternity. This view seems to get the most emphasis in fanatatical ciricles.

[Scrawly]

I think one has to differentiate between the world as creation, which Christ came to redeem, as opposed to the concept of the world as being in opposition to God. God obviously loves the world if it's understood in the first sense (and humans specifically), but not if it's understood in the latter sense, like in Joh 15:18-19, 16:33, 17:14-16. . One should be careful not to mix up the two concepts when reading the Bible.

But doesn't it seem that the world in the latter sense is the most illustrious, and productive, that result in the here-and-now emphasis which all of us benefit tremendously from? I don't see much material achievements that improve our lives and health in a multitude of ways coming from the side that has their eyes set on the unseen.

[Chrawnus]

But doesn't it seem that the world in the latter sense is the most illustrious, and productive, that result in the here-and-now emphasis which all of us benefit tremendously from? I don't see much material achievements that improve our lives and health in a multitude of ways coming from the side that has their eyes set on the unseen.

I have to say that I struggle to see the connection between enmity towards God and technological advancement.

And I reject the false dichotomy between living in the present (here-and-now emphasis) and having your eyes set on eternity and the unseen. As Christians we ought to live in the "here-and-now", while simultaneously having our eyes set on the eternal and unseen. I.e we should be helping making this world a better place, while spreading the message of salvation, having our eyes set upon God and salvation.

[Scrawly]

I have to say that I struggle to see the connection between enmity towards God and technological advancement.

And I reject the false dichotomy between living in the present (here-and-now emphasis) and having your eyes set on eternity and the unseen. As Christians we ought to live in the "here-and-now", while simultaneously having our eyes set on the eternal and unseen. I.e we should be helping making this world a better place, while spreading the message of salvation, having our eyes set upon God and salvation.

Yeah that is the ideal, but I am personally finding it very difficult. It seems that it doesn't take much to be pulled into the cares of this world and everything in it, which is passing away. I also would find it next to impossible for (example) Steve Jobs to sit under the preaching of Paul Washer or Tim Conway every Sunday and then continue with his technological creations. It seems to me that he would be struggling with some major cognitive dissonance.

[seanD]

I am using the videos I posted to give definition to "fanatical". My issue with such preaching is that it castigates human progress. So, how many of the founding fathers of science were of the fanatical flavor as Paul Washer and Tim Conway?

The thing is, the preachers on those videos really had nothing on the teachings of Jesus, Paul and John when it comes to radicalism. So if those preachers are fanatical, what category does Jesus, Paul and John fall into? It looks too me (and I'm not necessarily saying this is the case) that the modern church has fallen so far from true Christianity that even sub-par moderate Christian teaching has become fundamentalist fanaticism in our eyes.

[Scrawly]

The thing is, the preachers on those videos really had nothing on the teachings of Jesus, Paul and John when it comes to radicalism. So if those preachers are fanatical, what category does Jesus, Paul and John fall into? It looks too me (and I'm not necessarily saying this is the case) that the modern church has fallen so far from true Christianity that even sub-par moderate Christian teaching has become fundamentalist fanaticism in our eyes.

I must say I have to agree with you...

[seanD]

I must say I have to agree with you...

Obviously the early Christians were taught these things within a reality that Christians, even in the first century, still had to function in life. I think this just demonstrates that we, as modern church, have fallen so far to the other extreme that we're not anywhere near even the center. I think we can assume that the hyperbole in those passages was necessary in order to get a very important message across (a message that is almost certainly more important to us in our world than it was to them in their world). There’s probably no one Christian answer that fits all, but I think the moral is that the tension you mentioned earlier just comes with the territory; so if the tension is there, we're probably on the right track.

[maudman]

Obviously the early Christians were taught these things within a reality that Christians, even in the first century, still had to function in life. I think this just demonstrates that we, as modern church, have fallen so far to the other extreme that we're not anywhere near even the center. I think we can assume that the hyperbole in those passages was necessary in order to get a very important message across (a message that is almost certainly more important to us in our world than it was to them in their world). There’s probably no one Christian answer that fits all, but I think the moral is that the tension you mentioned earlier just comes with the territory; so if the tension is there, we're probably on the right track.

Well it's easy to assume that the world has gotten worse and maybe in some ways it has.. Or is it that the affect on having too much info about others is just having its toll on the human mind.. And that might be the real Issue.. Do we really trust in the Lord? Or have we been trusting in other things and men?
What Guides Christians that they are to get so caught up in troubles beyond what God has ask of us.... Its why reality TV has become so popular I guess? Who convince others they are to get so concerned about what they can't control not what they can control or have controlled?

How has that affected the kingdom of Heaven? The kingdom of heaven is what it is. Just as the world is what it is.. Is it the terrible world that was passing away as written in scripture or one that was Better?
If one is focused on the Kingdom then obviously the world has less impact.. Why are people being caught up in the cares of those of the world.. Maybe all this points to that there is something wrong with those who think its suppose to be different.. Why aren't people spending more time in prayer about the those who need Gods Love in their lives.. I was talking to person the other day and to him the world is better.. To him the world living in our country had been horrible compared to way others lived in the same country. Is life being better for them a lie soon to be felt in way worse than before? Is life better because they are getting what the world has given so many others.. It's really strange..

Talking to my Priest about such things he just kind a smiles because his life other than being so busy hasn't really changed much.. Sometimes they welcome it.. Maybe for some things are better and for other things are worse.. But how is that different other than seem to be aware of it in places we most the time didn't know existed..