More on the RCC

[RevTestament]

How can the Pope be infallible when Peter was a sinner???? Peter was not above the law; how can the Pope claim to be above the law especially since he claims he is Peter’s successor????

In fact, it was only a few passages after Jesus spoke to Peter those words which the RCC base their entire Divinity upon, when Jesus spoke again to Peter saying:

Matthew 16:23 (KJV)
23But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Obviously, Peter was NOT infallible!

JO - FYI the doctrine of infallibility does not mean that the pontiff cannot sin. It means that any doctrine he promulgates is inerrant.
As a consequence to keep him infallible, the church has often declared pontiffs to be anti-popes when it decides they were wrong.

[Sparko]

JO - FYI the doctrine of infallibility does not mean that the pontiff cannot sin. It means that any doctrine he promulgates is inerrant.
As a consequence to keep him infallible, the church has often declared pontiffs to be anti-popes when it decides they were wrong.

Ah kinda like the Prophet of the LDS church? and the way they threw Brigham Young under the bus later?

[RevTestament]

Sparko, I think everyone would agree this is totally the wrong thread for a discussion of LDS.
What's wrong? You mad?

[Sparko]

Sparko, I think everyone would agree this is totally the wrong thread for a discussion of LDS.
What's wrong? You mad?

nah. it's entirely the right thread. Jo is obsessed with putting down the catholics, but she fails to realize all the parallels between the pope and the LDS prophet. The two positions have a lot in common.

The Prophet when he speaks regarding doctrine is speaking scripture and is infallible. The pope when he speaks from the pulpit is the same (although I don't think the RCC would go as far as to call it "scripture")

[RBerman]

nah. it's entirely the right thread. Jo is obsessed with putting down the catholics, but she fails to realize all the parallels between the pope and the LDS prophet. The two positions have a lot in common.

The Prophet when he speaks regarding doctrine is speaking scripture and is infallible. The pope when he speaks from the pulpit is the same (although I don't think the RCC would go as far as to call it "scripture")

Catholics don't call the Pope's words "Scripture," but they also don't see that as any obstacle for the Pope's words being at least as authoritative as "Scripture." As you say, not unlike the LDS.

[Catholicity]

Catholics don't call the Pope's words "Scripture," but they also don't see that as any obstacle for the Pope's words being at least as authoritative as "Scripture." As you say, not unlike the LDS.

S
not quite. The pope's teaching in certain circumstances are Authoritative, But the Pope is by Holy Writ to 1st and fore Most Scripture (that is the Bible) Then the teachings of the Church Fathers, (Traditions and Dogmas) Then he is bound unless speaking on faith and morals to have the full agreement and accountability of the cardinals. its actually a lot different than the LDs)

[shunyadragon]

I was reminded of this post from several months ago (it took me awhile to find it, and I was disappointed to see that it contained no direct quotations, but here it is: http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...light=benedict ) The vibe I get is that the RCC does not officially believe that there is no salvation apart from the church, but rather that one's chances are not as great. (This hardly seems biblical to me, but I digress.)

Careful on the selective interpretation of Roman Church Doctrine on salvation. The reality is the Roman Church teaches that there is no salvation beyond what is defined by the Church. The basic doctrine defines salvation in three categories. (I) The sincere ones within the fold of the One True Church who belief and sincerely follow the rule book (the Catechism). (II) Those sincere ones with no knowledge of the ONE True Church, and those below the age of consent.

I will go into this in more detail with citations for those that are interested. Avoid individual comments, which may be misleading, and check out carefully what the Doctrine of the Church teaches. The Doctrines are 'Salvation only in the Church,' and the conditional salvation granted in the Doctrine of 'Universal Salvation.'

From the current Catechism, and further described in detail in the Vatican II . . .

http://www.catholicdoors.com/courses/salvatio.htm

12. Under paragraph # 816 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, we read, "The Second Vatican Council's Decree on Ecumenism explains: 'For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God.'" (C.C.C. # 816)

As stated, not only is salvation found in the Catholic Church, but also the "fullness of the means" of salvation.

© source where applicable

[mossrose]

Why do you baptize dead people?

Waiting for the answer to this one, please.

[Sparko]

Waiting for the answer to this one, please.

Well it's simple, mossy: dead people begin to stink after a few days so baptizing them is the only way to trick them into taking a bath.

[mossrose]

Well it's simple, mossy: dead people begin to stink after a few days so baptizing them is the only way to trick them into taking a bath.

Oh.

[shunyadragon]

nah. it's entirely the right thread. Jo is obsessed with putting down the catholics, but she fails to realize all the parallels between the pope and the LDS prophet. The two positions have a lot in common.

The Prophet when he speaks regarding doctrine is speaking scripture and is infallible. The pope when he speaks from the pulpit is the same (although I don't think the RCC would go as far as to call it "scripture")

The abuse between LDS believers and other Christians is often mutual and often acrid, and laced with ridicule. Nonetheless this is a thread concerning the Roman Church, not LDS.

[shunyadragon]

I was reminded of this post from several months ago (it took me awhile to find it, and I was disappointed to see that it contained no direct quotations, but here it is: http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...light=benedict ) The vibe I get is that the RCC does not officially believe that there is no salvation apart from the church, but rather that one's chances are not as great. (This hardly seems biblical to me, but I digress.)

And as for the Pope's comments; I don't see a reason to exclude him. I think somebody can be genuinely saved but wrong about whether somebody else is a Christian, or vice versa. Only God knows our hearts. Though the RCC writ large may exclude me, I cannot in good conscience exclude all Catholics, some of whom I know do have a saving relationship with Christ. Surprisingly, a short popular-level article by a Pentecostal theology professor whom I respect kind of helped reinforce it for me. I'd love to quote some of it but I'll just link it instead.

http://www.westmont.edu/~work/articl...hristians.html

Again, the speech given by the Pope every some any years or maybe every year does not change all that much from year to year and is a public relation shmooze speech, and does not reflect the reality of church doctrine, nor dogma. The Roman Church Doctrine does not acknowledge any salvation outside that which is specifically defined by the One True Church

[jo7241974]

Not to mention Speaking as a Catholic we do not Worship the Cross when we kneel before it, Kiss it, or pray before it, we Worship WHO it represents and Kiss who it represents. Jesus!!!!!

Hi Cath,

That is precisely my point!!!! You are NOT worshipping the Living God. You are worshipping an inanimate object which is only a representation of Diety. That is the definition of Idolatry!

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/idolatry

Definition of IDOLATRY

1: the worship of a physical object as a god
2: immoderate attachment or devotion to something

It is no coincidence that the Catechisms delete the second of the Ten Commandments; the RCC does not want to have to deal with questions about why the Leaders have made it "okay", and that they promote, the worshipping of idols.

Do not fool yourself. Those being prepared to take their first communion in the RCC are taught through the Catechisms which have deleted the 2nd Commandment. Why do YOU think they have gone to so much trouble to delete it, when they more easily could have left it in???? After a person is indoctrinated to one set of beliefs in order to qualify for taking their first communion, why is it okay to then use the Bible as your source of belief? Why not use the Bible's version of the Ten Commandments to begin with??? You have been brain washed by the pomp and circumstance which they have turned the worship of God into; making the members believe that this is the way they can show the sincerity of their love for Jesus and Father. Fortunately it is the intent of your heart which counts with God. However, those leaders who have corrupted the RCC will be accountable for their actions.

Love,

j0

[jo7241974]

Perhaps Frank should remove the statue of a pretend angel from his eye before trying to remove "The Old Rugged Cross" from ours.

going to my room...

As stated by Cath:

Not to mention Speaking as a Catholic we do not Worship the Cross when we kneel before it, Kiss it, or pray before it, we Worship WHO it represents and Kiss who it represents. Jesus!!!!!

I have yet to see faithful LDS worshipping, kneeling before, kissing, or praying before an inanimate object which is supposed to represent Jesus or Heavenly Father. Hence, since we do not do any of these things before the statue of Moroni, I think your attempt to make it look like we do to be an extremely misleading and lame argument.

Love,

jo

[Cow Poke]

As stated by Cath:

Not to mention Speaking as a Catholic we do not Worship the Cross when we kneel before it, Kiss it, or pray before it, we Worship WHO it represents and Kiss who it represents. Jesus!!!!!

I have yet to see faithful LDS worshipping, kneeling before, kissing, or praying before an inanimate object which is supposed to represent Jesus or Heavenly Father. Hence, since we do not do any of these things before the statue of Moroni, I think your attempt to make it look like we do to be an extremely misleading and lame argument.

Love,

jo

She's BAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaack!