Is This Where Godless Philosophy Natural Leads?

[ZackMartin]

Oh yeah, I do think there is a vast difference. What is the murder,rape or robbery rate per capita in Norway, or Britian, or France, compared to the US? It has been a while since I looked into this but if memory serves there was quite a difference. And I have idea what you mean by "actual solutions?" Making life as pleasant as possible for convicted murderers or rapists?

Maybe if America is so much more violent than Europe, maybe if America tried to become more like Europe, it would become less violent? A good start to becoming more like Europe would be abolishing capital punishment.

[ZackMartin]

I'm not suggesting that one would not be anxious, and yes some terrified - but you don't have to fall apart either. Sometimes you just have to be resigned to your fate - go out like a man.

If that's how you feel, fair enough; but you can't impose your feelings on others, or insist that just because you think that is how you would react, that others can't react differently.

Oh please - you are still killing a innocent human being, no matter how you couch it. And how is it in the best interest of the child who has a mild or moderate case of Down's to kill her? Best interest? YOU ARE KILLING HER - that is the definition of best?

How do you claim to know what someone's best interests are? Especially when they are a complete stranger to them, and you have no special expertise to determine that? I'm not saying anyone in particular should live or die; I know nothing about the hypothetical case you are bringing up, so I can't make any judgement; I simply say, the parents and doctors are better qualified to determine that than either you or I are, so I would prefer to leave the decision to them. Don't you think, parents and doctors are better judges of the best interests of infants, than you or I?

And besides, I didn't say it was in their best interest, I said they believed it was. What I said didn't rule out the possibility they could be genuinely and honestly mistaken. But genuine mistake is better than intentional disregard - so even honestly mistaken euthanasia is better than capital punishment.

BTW - I think it is in the best interest of society to put murderers and rapists and such to death. It shows how seriously we as a people take such crimes.

It is a form of barbarism, and it is a sure sign of an emotionally and spiritually immature society.

[seer]

Maybe if America is so much more violent than Europe, maybe if America tried to become more like Europe, it would become less violent? A good start to becoming more like Europe would be abolishing capital punishment.

Yeah, be more like Europe so we can be slaves to the state.

[pancreasman]

Yeah, be more like Europe so we can be slaves to the state.

Europeans are slaves to the state? I bet they didn't know that.

[seer]

Europeans are slaves to the state? I bet they didn't know that.

Of course they are - to differing degrees.The more socialistic a nation becomes the more dependent the populace becomes on the state for its needs. Hence the greater control the central government has over the individual. Simple logic.

[Leonhard]

Of course they are - to differing degrees.The more socialistic a nation becomes the more dependent the populace becomes on the state for its needs. Hence the greater control the central government has over the individual. Simple logic.

Remember what I said about you being the opposite of pedantic?

[seer]

Remember what I said about you being the opposite of pedantic?

Yes, and I gave you one definition of pedantic that I well may fit. But what exactly was your problem with what I said?

[Leonhard]

Yes, and I gave you one definition of pedantic that I well may fit. But what exactly was your problem with what I said?

I'm not a slave by the strict definition of one, or even a relaxed definition of one, or even a stretched poetic definition of one (except perhaps to certain vices). I make my own money, I vote for the person I choose, I can lay off my job and travel where I please, I can take part in the political process or not as I wish, I decide on what I'll spend my money, I can gather freely with others, talk freely, post ideas freely without anyone having to be my boss, I can start a company, take out a patent and have it protected legally, handle my own finances, make a demonstration, create art freely without fear of censorship, I can change my name, change where I live, the clothes I wear, the furniture of my apartment, my viewpoints are my own and I have a voice. If I'm a slave, then you're a slave.

So the question was what wasn't wrong with what you said. You ran out of arguments, and decided to take a cheap shots.

[seer]

I'm not a slave by the strict definition of one, or even a relaxed definition of one, or even a stretched poetic definition of one (except perhaps to certain vices). I make my own money, I vote for the person I choose, I can lay off my job and travel where I please, I can take part in the political process or not as I wish, I decide on what I'll spend my money, I can gather freely with others, talk freely, post ideas freely without anyone having to be my boss, I can start a company, take out a patent and have it protected legally, handle my own finances, make a demonstration, create art freely without fear of censorship, I can change my name, change where I live, the clothes I wear, the furniture of my apartment, my viewpoints are my own and I have a voice. If I'm a slave, then you're a slave.

So the question was what wasn't wrong with what you said. You ran out of arguments, and decided to take a cheap shots.

I haven't run out of anything, and it was Zack who started this by suggesting we should become more like Europe. And sure the slave thing was hyperbole, but nothing I said about socialism was untrue. It fosters dependency, makes men beholden to the government - and for every dollar the government takes from me for their social welfare programs it lessens my freedom that much to do with my own wages as I see fit. Never mind that it is an unsustainable system. Putting a debt on future generations that is deeply immoral.

[pancreasman]

I haven't run out of anything, and it was Zack who started this by suggesting we should become more like Europe. And sure the slave thing was hyperbole, but nothing I said about socialism was untrue. It fosters dependency, makes men beholden to the government - and for every dollar the government takes from me for their social welfare programs it lessens my freedom that much to do with my own wages as I see fit. Never mind that it is an unsustainable system. Putting a debt on future generations that is deeply immoral.

That must be the 'absolute morality' you keep banging on about. God is a republican.

[seer]

That must be the 'absolute morality' you keep banging on about. God is a republican.

I didn't say that, but there is no fault in my description of socialism.

[Leonhard]

And sure the slave thing was hyperbole

Have fun backpeddling.

Never mind that it is an unsustainable system. Putting a debt on future generations that is deeply immoral.

I'm sitting in a country that has one of the strongest economies on the planet. We had a low national debt and other countries owed us more than we owed them. The budget crisis put a sizable dent in our economy, but you guys haven't exactly fared much better so don't go tutting your horn on that one. We're starting to see slow growth there again.

[seer]

Have fun backpeddling.

No backpeddling, just a fact

I'm sitting in a country that has one of the strongest economies on the planet. We had a low national debt and other countries owed us more than we owed them. The budget crisis put a sizable dent in our economy, but you guys haven't exactly fared much better so don't go tutting your horn on that one. We're starting to see slow growth there again.

Well of course - we are embracing socialism more and more, no wonder. What country are you in? As far as I can see the only country I know of that is doing fairly well is Germany, well maybe Norway too.

[ZackMartin]

And sure the slave thing was hyperbole, but nothing I said about socialism was untrue. It fosters dependency

The military-industrial complex fosters dependency - the dependency of so many defence contractors on lucrative and wasteful defence contracts, the many people they employ, etc.

The US already has the most powerful military in the world, but wastes billions every year on trying to build more and bigger and better weapons. Like robot soldiers and superlaser weapons

makes men beholden to the government

the military-industrial complex makes people beholden to the government. How much beholden to the government are defence contractors, and their employees, and their families. They are addicted to military spending. Due to the very poor social security system in the US, the military actually acts as a surrogate for one - many poor people sign up just to get a decent income and good healthcare. Soldiers are the very definition of beholden to the government; they do what the government says, or else court-martial.

and for every dollar the government takes from me for their social welfare programs it lessens my freedom that much to do with my own wages as I see fit.

And for every dollar the government takes from you to spend on robot soldiers and superlasers and never-ending foreign wars, it lessens my freedom that much to do with my own wages as I see fit - yet I don't see you complaining about that.

Never mind that it is an unsustainable system. Putting a debt on future generations that is deeply immoral.

So, did the US run up its $15.6 trillion national debt through social security? Or through reckless military spending? How many trillions of dollars did the Iraq War cost? Finding Saddam's non-existent weapons of mass destruction? Overthrowing a dictator - yet the US is happy to support far worse regimes than Saddam's ever was - Saddam was evil, no doubt, but at least he let women drive cars, unlike Uncle Sam's best buddies the Saudi Arabians - and is the new mob whose replaced him going to be better? You can't create a democratic culture through military intervention, no matter how many billions you spend. (In the case of Afghanistan, given the Taliban's support for Osama bin Laden, an attack was justified in the immediate aftermath of 9/11, but the US should have left years ago.)

Europe has socialism, America has militarism. I'd rather socialism to militarism

[ZackMartin]

As far as I can see the only country I know of that is doing fairly well is Germany, well maybe Norway too.

Australia has a mining boom, far less government debt than the US, and a left-wing government (Labor party) which officially defines itself as "socialist" (although I think a lot of the time it's lip service socialism, and their policies often aren't genuinely socialist). The major right-wing party (Liberal party), will probably win the next election - because the current left-wing government have revealed themselves to be such a bunch of incompetent clowns - but even the major right-wing party has policies that are to the left of the Democrats in the US. The Australian Liberals (in Australia, "Liberal" means the opposite of what it does in the US, it means free market social conservatism - when I put "Liberal" down as my political alignment on this site, I meant it the American way) support government-funded healthcare to a degree that even many Democrats won't. Obama's plan is for compulsory private health insurance; in Australia, Medicare applies to everybody, not just seniors.