John 9:1-3 Jesus Heals a Man Born Blind

[ttruscott]

John 9
1 As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2 His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”

3 “Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him.”

Has anyone something to share with us as to why the disciples thought that he might have sinned before he was born if his soul was created at his birth, innocent of all sin?

And did Jesus rebuke them? Nope, He just answered normally as if the question was completely legitimate, just as if they believed that all men live as spirits in Sheol where they can fall into sin before they come to be born into a body on earth...

just like Pre-conception Existence Theology teaches.

Peace, Ted

[fm93]

Ted, have you ever wondered where babies come from? If not, don't worry--I'm here to tell you. When a mommy and a daddy love each other very much...


Seriously, though, I think you're definitely jumping the gun with this one. The Jews were aware that a baby isn't born immediately upon conception, but instead remains in the womb for several months. You ARE aware of this natural phenomenon, right? Some wondered if a baby could sin while in the womb in those nine months before being born. It's not an unreasonable question, because if you notice that babies are conscious when they're born, it's not at all a stretch to extrapolate that they were conscious within the womb as well. So Jesus treated it as a legitimate question because it was a legitimate question. This explanation is much simpler and makes much more sense than trying to force a pre-existence view out of the text.

[ttruscott]

Ahhh, you tease, me... :)

but SOME wondered if a baby could sin while in the womb in those nine months before being born.

I believe we all sinned pre-earth and therefore we are sinners in the womb, (Genesis 25:22 - And the children [Jacob and Esau] struggled together within her. Now, if they were fighting, at least one, if not both, had to be being evil, that is, doing evil works, or we'd have to admit that they were each fighting the other by the will of GOD.), and I know that believers in Adamic sin equate that sin being imputed at birth (yet to no consequence as they seem to repudiate that Adamic sin is culpable sin), but who believes of sin in the womb?

How do they suppose the fetus has the free will to become a sinner in the womb (Ps 51:5... sinful from the time my mother conceived me.) or the cognate ability to form a sinful intention? You suggest "that babies are conscious when they're born, it's not at all a stretch to extrapolate that they were conscious within the womb as well" but what evidence is there that they understand to the extent to be able to make sinful free will decisions so as to be able to be born punished?

I know of no theology which supposes 'sinful foetuses' to be an acceptable answer except PCE, but I'd enjoy reading it if you share about your 'some'.

Peace, Ted

[ZackMartin]

And did Jesus rebuke them? Nope, He just answered normally as if the question was completely legitimate

Don't have anything to say about the underlying issue, but there is an error of logic here - it's an argument from silence. If you tell me something based on a false premise, I might tell you your premise is wrong, then again I might just correct your conclusion on other grounds. My failure to correct your premise doesn't mean I agree with it.

Suppose you share with me an argument that contains five errors which I could see. I could point out all five errors to you; but I might decide instead to just mention what I think is the most important one, and leave the others unmentioned. Part of good communication sometimes is being brief, and not making every point that one could possibly make, but just choosing the one or two you think will have the most impact and sticking to that.

So the fact that Jesus doesn't correct their premises doesn't mean he is somehow endorsing them. He might just have felt that he had stronger arguments, and his communication would be more successful focusing on them.

Besides, does the Bible record every word Jesus ever said? He often seems to have two sentence conversations with people - does that mean that is all Jesus ever said to them? Or have the authors just written two sentences to convey the gist of the conversation, but not recorded everything that was discussed in it. (Probably only the gist was remembered anyway - you can remember conversations you had years ago, but you probably can't remember every point they covered.) John 21:25 says "Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written." That endorses the viewpoint that Jesus said many things in his life the Gospels have not recorded.

Zack

[ttruscott]

Very good Zack...

Peace, Ted

[fm93]

Genesis 25:22 - And the children [Jacob and Esau] struggled together within her. Now, if they were fighting, at least one, if not both, had to be being evil, that is, doing evil works, or we'd have to admit that they were each fighting the other by the will of GOD.),

Again, I think you're reading way too much into the text here. There's no indication that they were fighting out of hatred or anything like that. It's not even accurate to call it a fight. They were simply tussling with each other inside the womb. There's no moral element at all there.

How do they suppose the fetus has the free will to become a sinner in the womb (Ps 51:5... sinful from the time my mother conceived me.) or the cognate ability to form a sinful intention? You suggest "that babies are conscious when they're born, it's not at all a stretch to extrapolate that they were conscious within the womb as well" but what evidence is there that they understand to the extent to be able to make sinful free will decisions so as to be able to be born punished?

Hey, I don't think babies can sin in the womb. I'm just saying that some Jews did, and one can understand why they might think that.

[ttruscott]

Again, I think you're reading way too much into the text here. There's no indication that they were fighting out of hatred or anything like that. It's not even accurate to call it a fight. They were simply tussling with each other inside the womb. There's no moral element at all there.

Hey, I don't think babies can sin in the womb. I'm just saying that some Jews did, and one can understand why they might think that.

Gee, for some reason I thought they were tussling over the birthright which GOD planned on giving to the younger rather than the elder; <shrug> Jacob trying to become the elder so the birthright he knew was going to be his worked out correctly.

<sigh>,

Peace, Ted

[Cerebrum123]

Gee, for some reason I thought they were tussling over the birthright which GOD planned on giving to the younger rather than the elder; <shrug> Jacob trying to become the elder so the birthright he knew was going to be his worked out correctly.

<sigh>,

Peace, Ted

At that point in time they wouldn't have even known about the birthright, much less have any real way to fight over it(not exactly enough room in there to really fight).

[Chrawnus]

At that point in time they wouldn't have even known about the birthright, much less have any real way to fight over it(not exactly enough room in there to really fight).

Oh? Then how do you explain this?:

[ttruscott]

At that point in time they wouldn't have even known about the birthright, much less have any real way to fight over it(not exactly enough room in there to really fight).

You forget, this is in a thread about our existence before we were conceived in which we sinned. As such, the life GOD gave Jacob and Esau on earth to fulfill their needs may have been shared with them before they were transported to Rachel's womb., and as sinners, they reacted in a sinful way.

In fact, as a believer in our pre-earth existence I see no reason why GOD did not allow us to choose the life we wanted to bring us to redemption and sanctification out of all the perfect lives HE could have given us to achieve HIS plan. I think there is some feeling of evidence about that when I found my wife after years of searching and knew I had been waiting for her....the whole soul mate idea. :)

Peace, Ted

[Cerebrum123]

You forget, this is in a thread about our existence before we were conceived in which we sinned. As such, the life GOD gave Jacob and Esau on earth to fulfill their needs may have been shared with them before they were transported to Rachel's womb., and as sinners, they reacted in a sinful way.

In fact, as a believer in our pre-earth existence I see no reason why GOD did not allow us to choose the life we wanted to bring us to redemption and sanctification out of all the perfect lives HE could have given us to achieve HIS plan. I think there is some feeling of evidence about that when I found my wife after years of searching and knew I had been waiting for her....the whole soul mate idea. :)

Peace, Ted

Can you give any Biblical evidence for this position, other than your misunderstanding of the above verses?

[ttruscott]

No. It is the superior way...

Peace, Ted

[Cerebrum123]

No. It is the superior way...

Peace, Ted

So you have absolutely no other verses that support your position? I don't think it's a good idea to form too many speculations based on a single verse, especially since you didn't know the history behind it. Also, I'm not trying to be hard on you, but if you are going to take such a stance, I think you should be able to have more than one verse, and if possible more than one book from the Bible support your position.

[ttruscott]

So you have absolutely no other verses that support your position? I don't think it's a good idea to form too many speculations based on a single verse, especially since you didn't know the history behind it. Also, I'm not trying to be hard on you, but if you are going to take such a stance, I think you should be able to have more than one verse, and if possible more than one book from the Bible support your position.

IF by my position you mean my suspicion we had a hand in choosing which life we wanted to bring us to sanctification, I have no verse at all, just my understanding of the nature of my LORD.

If you mean PCE, then I have a lot of verses and everyone of them ast least as full of proof as the verses supporting:

The Great UNPROVEN Controversies of the Bible

Nature of GOD
trinity vrs no trinity

Authority
HRM, the torah vrs RCC, the Church vrs Protestant, leading of the HS

Creation
Calvinism, Arminianism
free will vrs no free will determinism
election
PCE

Eschatology
everything under the sun...

Resurrection
all resurrected, some resurrected
soul sleep Conditional Immortality, "Soul Sleep" and "Annihilationism" vrs soul s is created immortal

but you must be patient because I won't write a book but will work with a person... :)

Peace, Ted

[onefour1]

The LDS position is that we all existed prior to this earth life as spirit children of our Father in heaven. John 9:1-3 is one verse that gives us insight into the thoughts of the Apostles of Jesus regarding a pre-mortal existence. Other verses in the bible that LDS point to are:
Jeremiah 1:5
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Ecclesiastes 12:7
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

How can a spirit return to somewhere it has never been?

Proverbs 8:23-31
23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a acompass upon the face of the depth:

28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

In the above verses, wisdom existed before this world was ever created. It existed with God in the habitable parts of his earth sharing wisdoms delights with the sons of men.

Revelation 12:7-11
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

In the above verses it speaks of a war in heaven before Satan was cast out into this earth. Verse 10 speaks of the accuser Satan who accused our brethren before God day and night. Who were these brethren? Were they not Michael and his angels? John calls Michael and his angels his brethren. How did Michael and his angels eventually overcome Satan? They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they loved not their lives unto the death. This last verse is telling us that Michael and his angels, our brethren, fought against Satan and his angels in the pre-mortal existence and then came to this earth as mortals who required the blood of the Lamb to overcome sin, and eventually experienced death. They existed before and they came to this earth and lived unto death.

The truth is that we were all born in the pre-mortal existence as spirit children of our Father in heaven.
Hebrews 12:9
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?