2 Thessalonians 1:9: In the Lord's Presence or Away From?

[The Remonstrant]

2 Thessalonians 1:9: In the Lord's Presence or Away From?


The Passage

First, in order to ground 2 Thessalonians 1:9 more firmly in its context, I'll quote the passage from vv. 3-12 (ESV, emphasis added).

We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers, as is right, because your faith is growing abundantly, and the love of every one of you for one another is increasing. Therefore we ourselves boast about you in the churches of God for your steadfastness and faith in all your persecutions and in the afflictions that you are enduring.

This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering -- since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed. To this end we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his calling and may fulfill every resolve for good and every work of faith by his power, so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Disagreement Among Various English Translations

The standard English translations are not all agreed on how we ought to understand 1:9. What follows is a small sampling.

The HCSB, for example reads, "These [the lost] will pay the penalty of eternal destruction from the Lord’s presence and from His glorious strength"*.

Similarly, the NKJV: "These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power"

However, as quoted above, the ESV reads, "They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might"*, but allows in a footnote for the alternate reading of "destruction that comes from" the presence of the Lord (agreeing essentially with the standard HCSB and NKJV readings).

The NASB (similar to the standard ESV reading): "These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power"*.

The NIV, agreeing with the NASB and ESV: "They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might"*.

In summary, here we have the HCSB and NKJV in favor of one reading, and the ESV, NASB and NIV favoring another (of course, this is in no way intended to be an exhaustive survey of modern Bible translations).

Briefly Touching Upon Other Passages Concerning Final Punishment

In Matthew, there is a strong emphasis on banishment (or exclusion from the kingdom of heaven/God) concerning the fate of the lost. For example, take Jesus's words to the goats: "‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels'" (25:41, ESV). Also, to the false prophets/teachers: "‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness'" (7:23, ESV).

Revelation 14:9-11 (ESV), however, speaks of the lost being punished in the presence of God:

And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.

Obviously, this small selection of passages is not determinative of how we ought take 2 Thessalonians 1:9, as an eternal destruction that results from the presence of the Lord or being away from his presence, but it does demonstrate that both depictions are present in the NT.

The Question & Concern

My concern in this thread is simply this: Should 2 Thessalonians 1:9 be taken to mean, at the return of Christ,

(1) the wicked/lost will be sent away (or "shut out") from the presence of the Lord (as in banishment or separation [as with the ESV, NASB, NIV]), or
(2) the wicked/lost will be punished in the presence of the Lord (as with the HCSB and NKJV)?

And why would (1) or (2) seem best to fit the context?


* All emphases added to the various Bible translations.
(This post was not proof-read [irresponsible, I know], so if there are any major errors, my apologies to the reader in advance.)

[RBerman]

Interesting question you raise. It never occured to me that NKJV or HCSB meant to be read as "in the presence of the Lord" when they said "from the presence of the Lord." The Greek for "from" in this text is ἀπὸ, which implies either separation or origin. The latter meaning can imply instrumentality, e.g. Hebrews 5:8 says, "He learned obedience from (ἀπὸ) the things he suffered."

The "presence of the Lord" is a complex thing in Scripture. In some texts, it refers to the Shekinah (dwelling) glory of the Lord as a sign of special favor of God upon his people, which can be either experienced or withdrawn, e.g. Gen 4:16; Ex 33:14ff; Ps 51:11. But other texts treat God's omnipresence as an inescapable reality, e.g. Psalm 139:7-12. So the question, "Are the wicked punished in God's presence, or apart from it?" seems to depend on which sense of "presence" you mean. If you mean the state of God's favor, then they are away from that presence, i.e. they do not experience God's favor. But if you mean his inescable omnipresence, which would be terrible to the damned, then they are in that presence.

[The Remonstrant]

The Positive & Negative Presence/s of God

Interesting question you raise. It never occured to me that NKJV or HCSB meant to be read as "in the presence of the Lord" when they said "from the presence of the Lord." The Greek for "from" in this text is ἀπὸ, which implies either separation or origin. The latter meaning can imply instrumentality, e.g. Hebrews 5:8 says, "He learned obedience from (ἀπὸ) the things he suffered."

Thank you for your response. I'll admit at the outset my ignorance of the Hebrew and Greek languages, so any assistance in relation to the original biblical texts is appreciated. I hope to understand this text better as it is the most explicit Pauline passage regarding final punishment.

The "presence of the Lord" is a complex thing in Scripture. In some texts, it refers to the Shekinah (dwelling) glory of the Lord as a sign of special favor of God upon his people, which can be either experienced or withdrawn, e.g. Gen 4:16; Ex 33:14ff; Ps 51:11. But other texts treat God's omnipresence as an inescapable reality, e.g. Psalm 139:7-12.

Yes, the 139th psalm definitely comes to mind whenever endeavoring to discuss the presence of God. Whatever "Sheol" is taken to mean in Psalm 139 (whether simply the grave or some sort of conscious intermediate state of disembodied spirits or abode of the dead), the point is clearly made that God's presence is ineludible. This is definitely to be taken in consideration when discussing final punishment or the fate of the lost.

So the question, "Are the wicked punished in God's presence, or apart from it?" seems to depend on which sense of "presence" you mean. If you mean the state of God's favor, then they are away from that presence, i.e. they do not experience God's favor.

No, I would not presume to carry the connotation of the favor of God on the lost in their exclusion from the kingdom.

But if you mean his [inescapable] omnipresence, which would be terrible to the damned, then they are in that presence.

This is reminiscent of some of Robert A. Peterson's thoughts in Hell on Trial: The Case for Eternal Punishment (Presbyterian & Reformed Publishing, 1995) and Two Views of Hell with Edward Fudge (who argues for eventual annihilationism). So in one sense the lost are not in God's good or "positive" presence as are the saints, but instead banished or excluded from Jesus and the kingdom of God, outside the city gates of the New Jerusalem (Revelation 22:14-15). In another, the lost are indeed in a different type (as it were) of God's presence, in wrath and dishonor, not his grace, mercy, love.

As inconsequential as it might seem in light of what we have just discussed, acknowledging both "pictures" of final punishment (banishment and active punishment), does 2 Thessalonians 1:9 point us more toward the former or latter? At Christ's return, it is said he will be glorified in his saints and will be "marveled at among all who have believed" (1:10). Perhaps then v. 9 points to a contrast in that the lost will be excluded (i.e., "away from") from this (positive) presence the saints will be experiencing as they are sentenced to eternal destruction.

[RBerman]

This is reminiscent of some of Robert A. Peterson's thoughts in Hell on Trial: The Case for Eternal Punishment (Presbyterian & Reformed Publishing, 1995) and Two Views of Hell with Edward Fudge (who argues for eventual annihilationism). So in one sense the lost are not in God's good or "positive" presence as are the saints, but instead banished or excluded from Jesus and the kingdom of God, outside the city gates of the New Jerusalem (Revelation 22:14-15). In another, the lost are indeed in a different type (as it were) of God's presence, in wrath and dishonor, not his grace, mercy, love. As inconsequential as it might seem in light of what we have just discussed, acknowledging both "pictures" of final punishment (banishment and active punishment), does 2 Thessalonians 1:9 point us more toward the former or latter? At Christ's return, it is said he will be glorified in his saints and will be "marveled at among all who have believed" (1:10). Perhaps then v. 9 points to a contrast in that the lost will be excluded (i.e., "away from") from this (positive) presence the saints will be experiencing as they are sentenced to eternal destruction.

I see it as both/and. They will be away from God's favorable presence, thus the "outside the city" image of Revelation 21:27; 22:15. But they are also experiencing the wrath of the omnipotent, omnipresent, inescapable God, thus the "Lake of Fire" image in Revelation 20:15; 21:8. The ambiguity of ἀπὸ in 2 Thess 1:9 covers both aspects. In that case, "from" would be a more accurate translation than "away from," since the former retains the ambiguity which the latter resolves in one direction, just as "due to" would resolve the ambiguity in the other direction.

[John Reece]

BDAG lists six different definitions for ἀπό, and includes 2 Thess. 1:9 in the fourth:

ἀπό

4. to indicate distance away from a point, away from .... ― Hebraistically απὸ προσώπου τινός (Gen 16:6; Jer 4:26; Jdth 2:14; Sir 21:2; 1 Macc 5:34; ....) = ‏מִפְּנֵי פ (away) from the presence of someone 2 Th 1:9; Rv 12:14 (...).

[RBerman]

John, are you aware of any commentators who discuss the possible instrumental use of ἀπὸ here?

[John Reece]

John, are you aware of any commentators who discuss the possible instrumental use of ἀπὸ here?

I have eight commentaries on this subject; I will check them randomly one at a time and excerpt from each ― rather than look for a particular interpretation and post only that.

Edited to add: I have read all eight commentaries on 2 Thess. 1:9, in none of which is there any mention of a possible instrumental use of ἀπὸ in this verse.

[John Reece]

See the edited addition in this post.

From The New International Greek Testament Commentary: Commentary on 1 & 2 Thessalonians (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1990), by Charles A. Wanamaker:

This phrase, ἀπὸ προσώπου τοῦ κυρίου καὶ ἀπὸ τῆς δόξης τῆς ἰσχύος αὐτοῦ ("from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might"), reproduces the LXX text of Isaiah 2:10b (= verses 19b, 21b), except that Paul has dropped φόβος ("fear") from ἀπὸ προσώπου τοῦ φόβου κυρίου in order to fit the quotation into the structure of verse 9. This change has the further effect of personalizing the impersonal formulation of Isaiah 2. The choice of the imagery from Isaiah 2 was undoubtedly based on the judgment scene depicted there, though it is highly unlikely that Paul's readers would have caught the allusion. The two members of the formulation ("from the presence of the Lord" and "from the glory of his might") are part of the poetic synonymous parallelism used by the writer of Isaiah and should probably be understood in the same way in 2 Thes. 1:9. The presence of the Lord was traditionally associated with glory manifested as brilliant light (cf. Ezk. 1:26-28), and hence "the glory of his might" is simply a way of describing the glorious and majestic presence of the Lord from which the persecutors of the Thessalonians will forever be excluded. Paul does not describe the punishment of the godless here or anywhere else in graphic detail. Rather he focuses on exclusion from the glorious and majestic presence of the Lord with ἀπό having its normal spatial connotation here as in Isaiah 2:10.

[RBerman]

Isaiah 2:10-11

Enter into the rock
and hide in the dust
from before the terror of the Lord,
and from the splendor of his majesty.
The haughty looks of man shall be brought low,
and the lofty pride of men shall be humbled,
and the Lord alone will be exalted in that day.

Very interesting. In teaching through Hebrews, I've been discovering how full it is of OT allusions in little snippets like this, apart from the big, obvious quotations of large chunks. The "from" in Isaiah 2 is about avoidance. So Whitaker argues that we should understand the "eternal damnation" not as something caused by "the presence of the Lord and the glory of his might." Rather, either (1) the impending damnation about to be enacted causes damned men to flee the Lord's glorious might, or (2) The damnation has the effect of denying men access to the glory of God. The first of these two seems in more keeping with the message of Isaiah 2.

[John Reece]

From The New International Commentary on the New Testament: The First and Second Letters to the Thessalonians (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 2009), by Gordon D. Fee:

Although there are some inherent difficulties in understanding precisely what Paul meant by "eternal destruction from the face of the Lord," most likely it reflects a Hebraism in which the nature of the judgment itself ("destruction") is collapsed into its ultimate result (being cut off "from the face of the Lord"). Moreover, part of our difficulty stems from Paul's once again deliberate use of the Old Testament language, in this case of Isaiah 2:10 (LXX).

Paul ― ...who ... from the face of ............... the Lord
................. and from the glory of his might.
Isaiah ― Hide .... from the face of the fear of the Lord
................. and from the glory of his might.

Here Paul has not only brought language straight across from the Septuagint but has also kept the sense of Isaiah's text, which appears in a "day of the Lord" oracle of judgment agains Judah. In Isaiah that judgment has to do with Israel's being cut off from the divine Presence; in Paul's use of this language "the Lord" is now assumed to be Christ himself. As such this is a certain instance, therefore, where a unique, unshared prerogative of Yahweh has been appropriated to refer to Christ.

In picking up the language of Isaiah in this way Paul considers the nature of the judgment to be twofold. First, it affirms the ultimate in terms of eternal loss ― to be cut off forever from the divine presence, which in this case is to be found in Christ. Thus for Paul the ultimate judgment on those "who do not know God" because they have not obeyed the gospel of our Lord Jesus" is not in this case some expression of "hell," but is to be forever incapable of knowing God's presence as it has been revealed in Christ. For beings created in the divine image this is the ultimate desolation. Second, it means to miss out on "the glory of his might," both now and forever. This later phrase is probably a Hebraism that means something like "the splendor of his glory as the Mighty One." If so, Paul is once again asserting a very high Christology, in which Christ again assumes the role of the Almighty.

It should be noted further that Paul has little or no interest in "hell" as such. For him eternal glory has to do with being in the presence of the Father and the risen Lord. The eternal judgment of the wicked is the absolute loss of such glory. It is probably an indictment against the later church that it has so often fixated on the gruesome nature of the "everlasting destruction," whereas Paul's emphasis is on their being shut out from God's presence ― the ultimate loss. Thus, one is not surprised when, in a later letter, Paul thinks of the believers' eternal destiny in such terms only ― "to depart and be with Christ" (Phil 1:23).

To be cut off from this possibility is what Paul sees as "everlasting destruction." Very likely it is the loss of this very highly personal dimension of heaven ― and its loss as "eternal destruction" ― that has resulted in the later church's frequent fixation on "heaven" and "hell" as a place to which people go. For Paul "heaven" has to do with the reality of "the coming of Christ" and the experience of "his mighty glory," as one dwells eternally in that glory.

[John Reece]

Regarding the usage of ἀπό in 2 Thessalonians 1:9, this is from The Anchor Bible: The Letters to the Thessalonians (Doubleday, 2000), by Abraham J. Malherbe (wherein is an exception to the answer I gave RBerman in a post above):

from the face of the Lord. The preposition apo ("from") admits of a number of possible meanings (see Eadie, 244-45; Rigaux 1956: 632), in the following order of escalating probability:

• 1. Patristic commentators understood apo temporally, the ruin occurring "at," "from," or "immediately after" the Lord's manifestation, which would make the phrase parallel to en tē apokalypsei ("at the revelation") in verse 6. The references to Rom 1:20 and Phil 1:5, marshaled in support of this interpretation are not, however, apt, for in them apo is used with an event or epoch that makes clear the temporal significance.

• 2. Apo was interchangeable with ek ("from"); cf. 1 Thess 2:6; Matt 3:16; John 1:44-46; see GNTC 3.259), and it has been suggested that the face of the Lord would be the ultimate source of eternal ruin (for the same construction, apo tou prosōpou tou kyriou ["from the face of the Lord"], but emphasizing eschatological blessings, see Acts 3:20).

• 3. A more probable interpretation takes apo to be causal, the Lord bringing about ruin "by his presence and glory (Findlay, 150). The OT speaks of the destructive effect of the Lord's presence (e.g., Ps 34:16; Jer 4:26), and in late Greek apo was used interchangeably with hypo ("by") of the agent (GNTG 3.258), though most frequently in this sense with passive verbs (e.g., Acts 2:22; 15:33;; 20:9; 2 Cor 7:13; the manuscripts frequently replace apo with hypo. For a similarity in thought but not wording, see 2 Thess 2:8c.

• 4. A number of considerations suggest that apo should be understood spatially, as reflected in the translation ["from the face of the Lord"]. This is the normal meaning of the phrase (e.g., Acts 5:41; 7:45; Rev 12:14; 20:11, where it is predicted that the unrighteous would try to hide themselves in rocks and caves apo prosōpou kyriou kai apo tēs doxēs tēs ischyos autou ("from the presence of the fear of the Lord and from the glory of his might") when he rises to terrify the earth. In Isaiah God is Lord; here Jesus is Lord.

In addition, and most important, is that the spatial understanding of apo points to the contrast of those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel to those who believe, who will be with the Lord Jesus forever (...). The Thessalonians will appear before God and the Lord Jesus at his coming (1 Thess 2:19; 3:13; for the blessed who will see the face of God, see Ps 11:7; 18:10; Heb 12:14; 1 John 3:2; Rev 22:4). Paul's omission of tou phobou ("of the fear") from Isaiah makes the parallelism with the following phrase stronger and again shows Paul's relative reticence to stress judgment in comparison with contemporary apocalyptic. This is also in contrast to Rev 6:15-17, which alludes to these passages from Isaiah, combined with Hos 10:8, and to the Son of Man tradition, e.g., Matt 15:41, "Depart from me [ap' emou] ... into eternal fire"; cf. "into eternal punishment" (eis kolasin aiōnion, verse 46; cf. Matt 7:23; Luke 18:27). Paul continues to strip the apocalyptic traditions of elements that do not directly serve his consolatory purpose.

[The Remonstrant]

Thank you both (RBerman and John Reece) for your contributions to this thread.