Judachrislam

[shunyadragon]

The Baha'i faith is a sad attempt at syncretism between all worldviews,

The Baha'i Faith is not syncretistic, and does not claim to include all worldviews. Some educated reading would help your uneducated religious bias.

. . . just like the Unitarian Universalists.

First, not at all like the Unitarian Universalists. They are distinctly Humanist/Deist in their beliefs and do not claim to be syncretistic. The Unitarian Universalists just allow a diversity of beliefs in their congregation.

Theosophists and Sikhism are classic syncretistic religious movements. The claim is often made that Christianity is a syncretistic movement combining Judaism and Roman religious beliefs.

The sadness is the long history of conflict, war, superstition, ethnic, conflicts with science, and religious cleansing, and persecution among the Jews, Christians and Muslims.

Also Baha'i started out illegitimately, by usurping Mohammad's authority in Islam. If they really believed that he was a prophet, then they wouldn't have even have had a beginning. Mohammed repeatedly said that he was the last of Allah's prophets, and that none would come after him, but Baha'ullah just rejected that notion, and started his own religion.

From someone who rejects Mohammed and the beliefs of Islam this criticism does not work big time, unless you have decided to become a Muslim and have not changed your choice of faith designated in your headliner.

The problem also exists for Christian claims over Judaism, and Islams claims concerning Christianity.

[Cerebrum123]

The Baha'i Faith is not syncretistic, and does not claim to include all worldviews. Some educated reading would help your uneducated religious bias.



First, not at all like the Unitarian Universalists. They are distinctly Humanist/Deist in their beliefs and do not claim to be syncretistic. The Unitarian Universalists just allow a diversity of beliefs in their congregation.

The sadness is the long history of conflict, war, superstition, ethnic, conflicts with science, and religious cleansing, and persecution among the Jews, Christians and Muslims.




From someone who rejects Mohammed and the beliefs of Islam this criticism does not work big time, unless you have decided to become a Muslim and have not changed your choice of faith.

The problem also exists for Christian claims over Judaism, and Islams claims concerning Christianity.

shunyadragon, from what I understand, and I am certainly fine with correction, don't Baha'i claim that "God" (I don't think Baha'i are talking about the same God Christians are, which is why I used quotations) sent prophets to all nations with basically the same message? Don't they also try to basically say that they have all been corrupted in some parts, but preserved others?

As for the Unitarian Universalists, they are basically just another group with utopian ideas, and not sticking to any one set of beliefs right? They basically just include everyone, and that certainly gives an impression of syncretism.

You do realize that for Jews and Christians most of the bad things you mentioned happened AGAINST them right? And that for Islam, they were in the majority INSTIGATING it, right? In fact, Islam instigates these things still.

As for your last one, what does it matter if I believe Mohammed was correct, as long as I know what he taught(I have done significant study on Islam, and from a large variety of sources)? Also can you give me a similar claim in Jewish history, where they said that there would be no other prophets from God? Anything at all resembling Mohammed's claim of being the "seal of the prophets"? Did Christians ever claim that no one else would ever receive prophetic revelation after Jesus? Sorry shuny, but these claims don't exist in the first 2, but are built-in in Islam. Anyone who claims that Mohammed WAS a prophet should be accepting HIS prophecies and statements (especially the ones in the Quran). Baha'ullah claimed that Mohammed WAS a prophet, but rejected one of his major claims. This is a problem that only exists with the Baha'i, and is in no way comparable to anything in either Judaism or Christianity. For my criticism to work, all I need to know is what Mohammed taught, and whether or not Baha'i consider Mohammed to be a prophet, and from what I understand that is the case.

[shunyadragon]

shunyadragon, from what I understand, and I am certainly fine with correction, don't Baha'i claim that "God" (I don't think Baha'i are talking about the same God Christians are, which is why I used quotations) sent prophets to all nations with basically the same message? Don't they also try to basically say that they have all been corrupted in some parts, but preserved others?

Over simplification and generalizations based on limited knowledge with a heavy dose of religious bias. The bottom line is no the description of the above is inaccurate. The relationship between the Baha'i Faith, and Judaism. Christianity and Islam, is similar to that between Judaism and Christianity, which are not by any measure the same.

As for the Unitarian Universalists, they are basically just another group with utopian ideas, and not sticking to any one set of beliefs right? They basically just include everyone, and that certainly gives an impression of syncretism.

. . . giving one an impression does not define anothers belief, especially since it is expressed through the filter of a strong religious bias.

[quote] You do realize that for Jews and Christians most of the bad things you mentioned happened AGAINST them right? And that for Islam, they were in the majority INSTIGATING it, right? In fact, Islam instigates these things still.

Wrong, take off your rose colored glasses of religious bias and take a look at the real history.

As for your last one, what does it matter if I believe Mohammed was correct, as long as I know what he taught(I have done significant study on Islam, and from a large variety of sources)? Also can you give me a similar claim in Jewish history, where they said that there would be no other prophets from God? Anything at all resembling Mohammed's claim of being the "seal of the prophets"? Did Christians ever claim that no one else would ever receive prophetic revelation after Jesus? Sorry shuny, but these claims don't exist in the first 2, but are built-in in Islam. Anyone who claims that Mohammed WAS a prophet should be accepting HIS prophecies and statements (especially the ones in the Quran). Baha'ullah claimed that Mohammed WAS a prophet, but rejected one of his major claims. This is a problem that only exists with the Baha'i, and is in no way comparable to anything in either Judaism or Christianity. For my criticism to work, all I need to know is what Mohammed taught, and whether or not Baha'i consider Mohammed to be a prophet, and from what I understand that is the case.

What you believe from a position of a strong religious bias, and the fact that you do not believe in Islam voids your criticism from the gitgo. Your limited knowledge of Islam and the Koran, which you likely have not read is reduced to one liners, which do not represent the whole picture. There is more to prophecy and beliefs than one quote about being the 'seal of the prophets.' A simple fact you apparently do not know is Islam prophecies the 'Return of Christ' after Mohammed. This is only the beginning of what reflects

It remains the fact that Judaism rejects Christianity on a similar basis as Christianity rejects Islam, and Islam rejects the Baha'i Faith.

[headheart]

The sadness is the long history of conflict, war, superstition, ethnic, conflicts with science, and religious cleansing, and persecution among the Jews, Christians and Muslims.

Don't they also try to basically say that they have all been corrupted in some parts, but preserved others?

Well, well here we go again.

It's certainly not a new topic this 'long history of conflict, war, superstition, ethnic, conflicts with science, and religious cleansing, and persecution among the Jews, Christians and Muslims,' and viewing this timeline we should get a little more balance to the subject.

Timeline of World Religions.jpg

Frank's religion is still very young in relation to the three he's attended his brief historical summary about and well as we all know the longer any human institution exists the greater likelihood there will be a history one day for the Baha'i religion to.

Personally, I've always liked the musicians who are Baha'i but I'm not sure how well Frank is representing them all on his own so I thought I'd like to play some music but one of my favorite Bahai's


Hummingbird - Seals and Crofts

Peace,
Eric

[Cerebrum123]

[QUOTE=shunyadragon;3401559]Over simplification and generalizations based on limited knowledge with a heavy dose of religious bias. The bottom line is no the description of the above is inaccurate. The relationship between the Baha'i Faith, and Judaism. Christianity and Islam, is similar to that between Judaism and Christianity, which are not by any measure the same.



. . . giving one an impression does not define anothers belief, especially since it is expressed through the filter of a strong religious bias.

You do realize that for Jews and Christians most of the bad things you mentioned happened AGAINST them right? And that for Islam, they were in the majority INSTIGATING it, right? In fact, Islam instigates these things still.

Wrong, take off your rose colored glasses of religious bias and take a look at the real history.



What you believe from a position of a strong religious bias, and the fact that you do not believe in Islam voids your criticism from the gitgo. Your limited knowledge of Islam and the Koran, which you likely have not read is reduced to one liners, which do not represent the whole picture. There is more to prophecy and beliefs than one quote about being the 'seal of the prophets.' A simple fact you apparently do not know is Islam prophecies the 'Return of Christ' after Mohammed. This is only the beginning of what reflects

It remains the fact that Judaism rejects Christianity on a similar basis as Christianity rejects Islam, and Islam rejects the Baha'i Faith.

I did say I was welcome to correction, but all you seem to be doing is yelling "WRONG" and "BIAS", and not really telling me why.

Again' I said I was open to correction, but I all I get is the same "WRONG" and "BIAS", and not really telling me exactly what I said was wrong, and why it was wrong.

Note the word MOST in that sentence. I do know a bit about Christian, Jewish, and Islamic history, and I can tell you for a fact, that out of the 3 Islam is 90% the instigator, and the others have actually been victims much more often. Even the Crusades were due to Islamic aggression, but maybe you didn't know that? Only a few times have Christians been the "instigators"(the Inquisitions being one of them), and in doing so they were being inconsistent with what Christianity teaches. The few times that people claim as Jewish "crimes" were wars against some pretty terrible people(like the Canaanites and their child sacrifice), often they ended up being persecuted by said nation, and having to fight back at a later time(like the Philistines). Islam however started by the sword, spread by the sword, and is still very fond of the sword today.

Another claim of "BIAS"' and "WRONG", but without giving me a valid reason on why, other than I am not a Muslim. I do not have to believe in either Baha'i or Islam to criticize either one(this is an unsupported assertion on your part). I may have not read the Quran straight through in one sitting, but I have seriously studied it, the Hadith, and the Sira. I also know a bit about Sharia law. Also I DID know about the claim of the return of Jesus being taught in Islam, did I ever claim that Mohammed, or his teachings never conflicted? No I didn't(you shouldn't assume what a person does and does not know, you do know what happens when you assume, right?). Not only did Mohammed call himself "the seal of the prophets", but he repeatedly claimed to be the last prophet to be sent by Allah. He also claimed that he was the best one as well. I have been trying to keep some of these things simple, and not have to bring in all of the convoluted verses from the Quran and Hadith into it, but if I must.

Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the Messenger of God and the last (end) of the Prophets. And God is Ever All-Aware of everything. S. 33:40 Hilali-Khan

Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "The Israelis used to be ruled and guided by prophets: Whenever a prophet died, another would take over his place. There will be no prophet after me, but there will be Caliphs who will increase in number." The people asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What do you order us (to do)?" He said, "Obey the one who will be given the pledge of allegiance first. Fulfil their (i.e. the Caliphs) rights, for Allah will ask them about (any shortcoming) in ruling those Allah has put under their guardianship." (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 56, Number 661)

Narrated Jubair bin Mutim:
Allah's Apostle said, "I have five names: I am Muhammad and Ahmad; I am Al-Mahi through whom Allah will eliminate infidelity; I am Al-Hashir who will be the first to be resurrected, the people being resurrected there after; and I am also Al-'Aqib (i.e. There will be no prophet after me)." (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 56, Number 732)

Now, all I need in order to criticize in the way I did, is to know what Islam taught and still teaches, and what Baha'i claim they believe on this issue. I know that Islam teaches that Mohammed would be the last prophet, (even though it referred to Jesus returning) and that Baha'i believe that Mohammed was a prophet. The reasons for Islamic rejection of Baha'i are completely legitimate, as a major teaching of Mohammed was being contradicted by Baha'ullah. Of course Islam contradicts a lot of teachings of Christianity, but they chalk it up to the Bible being corrupted (despite what Mohammed said on the subject). So, you can make somewhat of a case that the rejection is similar in that case, but it's very different than that of Judaism and Christianity (there isn't a major teaching in Judaism that is rejected in Christianity, the whole deal of God being one in the strict sense like Islam teaches, didn't come about until after the rise of Christianity, so it's a bit different).

Shuny, you have shown both arrogance, and ignorance on this. I will admit that I don't know a whole lot about Baha'i(I also said that I was open to correction, but you didn't even try, but you wouldn't even attempt it), but I know enough to make the criticism above, and that is what matters.

[AlphaBravo]

There is reconciliation in the Baha'i Faith

Contemporary Judaism, Christianity and Islam reject any sort of reconciliation.

tolerance is simply a grade of intolerance, that people use to relate to others that they consider fundamentally different. It represents 'bandaids' for cancer' when trying to deal with relationships between religions and beliefs that consider themselves the only 'true' relationship with God.

It is more realistic to dump all the useless ancient religions like Judaism, Christianity, and Islam that will never in reality resolve their differences reconcilation because of fundamental arrogant doctrines and dogmas, and fails to embrace anything close to the universal which is the reality of the world we live in..

The Baha'i Faith is a real alternative that embraces the universal. Unitarian Universalists do well from a humanist/ deist perspective, but it is foolish idealism that has always failed for any hope that the bandaids of tolerance will ever bear fruit.

The admirable aspects of Baha'i notwithstanding, you are not describing "reconciliation" in the Baha'i faith. You are describing an elitist rejection and conversion of all the major religions to a faith held by 0.1% of the worlds population before there can be peace. I really don't see how you have an original concept here.

[headheart]

I will admit that I don't know a whole lot about Baha'i(I also said that I was open to correction, but you didn't even try, but you wouldn't even attempt it), but I know enough to make the criticism above, and that is what matters.

It's primarily because I think you'll find that Bahai's are encouraged to figure out their own beliefs and it's not really a set beliefs system. If you'd like to understand what others believe then I suggest you read their archived posts before you get into a head-lock with them. It's something one either gets from being here long enough, or from studying the archives.

Peace out, cat.
Eric.

[headheart]

The admirable aspects of Baha'i notwithstanding, you are not describing "reconciliation" in the Baha'i faith. You are describing an elitist rejection and conversion of all the major religions to a faith held by 0.1% of the worlds population before there can be peace. I really don't see how you have an original concept here.

I can't believe that Frank actually wrote this :

It is more realistic to dump all the useless ancient religions like Judaism, Christianity, and Islam that will never in reality resolve their differences reconcilation because of fundamental arrogant doctrines and dogmas, and fails to embrace anything close to the universal which is the reality of the world we live in..

What was it that Agrippa said to the apostle Paul?

Holy Smoke Frank, you're losing it brother.

Peace,
Eric

[Cerebrum123]

It's primarily because I think you'll find that Bahai's are encouraged to figure out their own beliefs and it's not really a set beliefs system. If you'd like to understand what others believe then I suggest you read their archived posts before you get into a head-lock with them. It's something one either gets from being here long enough, or from studying the archives.

Peace out, cat.
Eric.

That's a very good point. I did make clear however that I was perfectly fine being corrected if wrong, but he didn't do that. The big point I was trying to make, is that Baha'ullah, the founder of the Baha'i believed that Mohammed was a prophet, but rejected one of the major things that Mohammed claimed. This doesn't go very far in support of the idea that Mohammed was really being accepted as a prophet. I don't know of a single instance in Christianity where they have rejected a Jewish prophet(or the teachings of said prophet). This can however be seen in Islam and Baha'i (or at least with Baha'ullah as far as Baha'i go). Islam accepts Jesus as a prophet, but not his teachings, but this is claimed to be because Jesus' teachings have been either lost, or corrupted.

[headheart]

Frank's statement: (post 3)

tolerance is simply a grade of intolerance, that people use to relate to others that they consider fundamentally different. It represents 'bandaids' for cancer' when trying to deal with relationships between religions and beliefs that consider themselves the only 'true' relationship with God.

It is more realistic to dump all the useless ancient religions like Judaism, Christianity, and Islam that will never in reality resolve their differences reconcilation because of fundamental arrogant doctrines and dogmas, and fails to embrace anything close to the universal which is the reality of the world we live in..

The Baha'i Faith is a real alternative that embraces the universal. Unitarian Universalists do well from a humanist/ deist perspective, but it is foolish idealism that has always failed for any hope that the bandaids of tolerance will ever bear fruit.

Frank can't you see what you're saying.

1. the only 'true' relationship with God
2. fails to embrace anything close to the universal which is the reality of the world we live in..
3. The Baha'i Faith is a real alternative that embraces the universal.

Conclusion: You're (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) wrong and I'm (Baha'i) right. Now that is a universal!

Peace,
Eric.

[Cerebrum123]

Frank's statement: (post 3)



Frank can't you see what you're saying.

1. the only 'true' relationship with God
2. fails to embrace anything close to the universal which is the reality of the world we live in..
3. The Baha'i Faith is a real alternative that embraces the universal.

Conclusion: You're (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) wrong and I'm (Baha'i) right. Now that is a universal!

Peace,
Eric.

Yeah I kind of figured that. If he would have even attempted to "educate" me about Baha'i beliefs and tell my why I was wrong instead of yelling "BIAS" and "WRONG", then it wouldn't be so bad. Also his assumptions about my knowledge aren't very helpful either. The only reason I haven't read the Quran straight through, is because there is no kind of order, no chronology, nothing. It's easier to read it in smaller pieces, and find out what order which verse was revealed, and when that happened. As it stands, the Quran is ordered by chapter length, and that isn't very helpful given the concept of abrogation(later revelation supercedes the latter).

[headheart]

That's a very good point. I did make clear however that I was perfectly fine being corrected if wrong, but he didn't do that.

He's a tough cookie and you're going to need to watch out for his upper cut, side swipe and left hook. He's going to expect you to go out and do your homework before you begin arguing with him about his brand of Baha'i. Like most on this forum, they're not what they seem to be and as a result there's often a lot of this sort of rough housing. Unless you get used to it you're going to be locking antlers on an almost minute by minute basis. I have no idea why I come here, but I guess I enjoy it cause it's like a video game except without all the cool animated characters. (but we have avatars!) Frank's cool, you just gotta watch out (I told you already)

The big point I was trying to make, is that Baha'ullah, the founder of the Baha'i believed that Mohammed was a prophet, but rejected one of the major things that Mohammed claimed. This doesn't go very far in support of the idea that Mohammed was really being accepted as a prophet. I don't know of a single instance in Christianity where they have rejected a Jewish prophet(or the teachings of said prophet). This can however be seen in Islam and Baha'i (or at least with Baha'ullah as far as Baha'i go). Islam accepts Jesus as a prophet, but not his teachings, but this is claimed to be because Jesus' teachings have been either lost, or corrupted.

I understand. That's how new religions are formed and well it's just the way the cookie crumbles. There are also schisms within Christianity, Islam and Judaism and I think what Frank is doing is a bit of a problem for he's trying to look at Christianity as one religion, and the same with the others and forgets that they're all made up with people just like himself who have their own views on things.
I mean I'm a Christian but what do I label myself as ? A Smeagologist. It's because I don't like their dumb label 'Christian (other)' I've melded my beliefs as a Christian with Oriental and Hindu beliefs and to most I'm rather an odd bloke. But I don't give a hoot, I think they're odd too.

Peace out.
Eric

[Cerebrum123]

He's a tough cookie and you're going to need to watch out for his upper cut, side swipe and left hook. He's going to expect you to go out and do your homework before you begin arguing with him about his brand of Baha'i. Like most on this forum, they're not what they seem to be and as a result there's often a lot of this sort of rough housing. Unless you get used to it you're going to be locking antlers on an almost minute by minute basis. I have no idea why I come here, but I guess I enjoy it cause it's like a video game except without all the cool animated characters. (but we have avatars!) Frank's cool, you just gotta watch out (I told you already)



I understand. That's how new religions are formed and well it's just the way the cookie crumbles. There are also schisms within Christianity, Islam and Judaism and I think what Frank is doing is a bit of a problem for he's trying to look at Christianity as one religion, and the same with the others and forgets that they're all made up with people just like himself who have their own views on things.
I mean I'm a Christian but what do I label myself as ? A Smeagologist. It's because I don't like their dumb label 'Christian (other)' I've melded my beliefs as a Christian with Oriental and Hindu beliefs and to most I'm rather an odd bloke. But I don't give a hoot, I think they're odd too.

Peace out.
Eric

On the first point, if there is a specific place that he can point me to that tells his views accurately, I don't mind being directed there, but with only the word "Baha'i" up there, then unless he can narrow it down for me (or at least point me towards some of his old posts so I can read them) I am never going to understand what page he is on. I am relatively new here, and I am trying to learn about a variety of things right now, and if he is willing to take the time and give a simple link, I am willing to take the time to read it. Yelling "BIAS" and "WRONG" don't do much to further a discussion

[headheart]

On the first point, if there is a specific place that he can point me to that tells his views accurately, I don't mind being directed there, but with only the word "Baha'i" up there, then unless he can narrow it down for me (or at least point me towards some of his old posts so I can read them) I am never going to understand what page he is on. I am relatively new here, and I am trying to learn about a variety of things right now, and if he is willing to take the time and give a simple link, I am willing to take the time to read it. Yelling "BIAS" and "WRONG" don't do much to further a discussion

No problem there and I'm sure that Frank'll direct you to that but in the meantime if you are interested you can read my own discussion with Frank about his beliefs: Bahá'í Faith - "Jesus" - Shunyadragon? and another which is more technical regarding the Christian Godhead: Gender of the Deity



Peace,
Eric

[Cerebrum123]

No problem there and I'm sure that Frank'll direct you to that but in the meantime if you are interested you can read my own discussion with Frank about his beliefs: Bahá'í Faith - "Jesus" - Shunyadragon? and another which is more technical regarding the Christian Godhead: Gender of the Deity



Peace,
Eric

Thanks. I will take a look at it when I get a chance, but I am about to go to bed.