Judachrislam

[shunyadragon]

Messianic 'Jews' are Christian, not Jewish.

True!!! There sneaky critters

[Tassman]

You imply that 'stop the fighting.' is what reconciliation means.
King Henry VIII effectively banned Catholicism and that probably led to less conflict. But it gave the people suppression.

Personally I believe that the only way for people to be reconciled is through knowing the truth.

Magellan

Couldn’t agree more except that your truth is not my truth! So how do we resolve this dilemma - toss a coin?

[headheart]

Of course not all Jews agree with you, esp. Messianic Jews

Messianic 'Jews' are Christian, not Jewish.

That's not how some of them are thinking these days. Most of whom I've chatted with over the years inform me that they are "more" Jewish now that they've accepted Y'shau HaMassiach. In fact it's a very strong movement which wants to distance itself from those who reject the Jewishness of Jesus. He was after all a Jew. Right? (He didn't become a Christian ) So when a Jewish person accepts another Jewish person as a prophet and even goes as far as to acknowledge said Jewish person to be their Messiah, that does that make them "Christian" they are still Jewish though they might not do their religion the same way as they have done in the past. I know that there are some Jews who convert to Christianity and then want to distance themselves from everything that's Jewish, I think that I felt that way in the beginning because reading the New Testament really shows so many of the Jews of that time are up in Jesus' grill most of the time; yet the earliest followers and teachers of Y'shua were Jews and it's becoming clearer these days that to really embrace a Jewish prophet one has to retain some of that Jewishness that goes along with that. Well, that's how I feel and I was once a pagan who accepted a Jewish man as my Savior/Messiah. (How weird is that?) I will always be an Englishman who was born and raised as a South African who had zero Christian beginnings and who accepted the message about a Jewish man who some Jews acknowledge as a their prophet and others go further to accept as their Messiah. I guess in some ways I've taken steps towards embracing some of that Jewishness by attend the Jewish college and being taught Jewish customs and language by a rabbi who has fully embraced the Jewish culture because I want to embrace Y'shua more fully. I know this sounds crazy but it's what some of us Gentiles do when we realize that Jesus was not a Gentile but a Jew and that we are some how short a few without embracing that Jewishness. I've always been fond of Jewish people and during my High School years was surrounded by Jews (and even ate their bacon ) I played rugby with them and in some ways I think I became enchanted by them for they were different in a nice way. Hey, I'm talking about the late sixties man. People have changed a lot since them. I even attended a Bar'mitzvah (I hope I spelled that right?) and I guess I've never really been a Jew-hater like some are and after I accepted Jesus as my Lord (the whole Christian terminolgy) I guess it never really dawned on me that he was a Jew until I began studying and that's how I came to be a Gentile (seeing as Christian was not my start) who embraced the religion of many Gentiles and then discovered that it was profoundly rooted in the Jewish culture, history and religion and well I guess that's why I bothered to learn Hebrew (still at baby level and fast forgetting the alphabet, dammit!!!!) Oh, well I know I'll get back to my studies as I have my course notes as well as a CD a tape and my Dictionary, but I need to get a proper Tanach. I've even seen a Torah scroll and nearly got to go to a very conservative Synagogue in Muizenberg in 2007. I tried to join some of the Messianic fellowships out here, but they are very suspicious of outsider having had some very hostile reactions from the natives. It's a sad world when people cannot accept each other and I hope that I can change my own heart to be more accepting of so many of the New religions that are wanting to be recognized as legitimate.

Baruch Hashem Adonai.

[headheart]

I have recently been watching the excellent (Lord Winston) BBC documentary “The Story of God” on YouTube. It made me wonder if there is any hope that there might be reconciliation among the three monotheistic Abrahamic faiths. The bosses could have a conference. They could call the new religion Judachrislam, redraft the Tanakh/Bible/Koran and call it the Tanbibran, ban all the old religions and stop the fighting. The documentary is in three parts as follows:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zBakH-6uiU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOMI6A2PBOw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-AV861UUt0
Unfortunately, Ken Ham would have to be confined in a lunatic asylum.

Stirring Islam, Christianity and Judaism into a pot will NEVER WORK!.jpg

Americans, Roman Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Christians, Frank, Jamie fellow t-webbers, lend me your ears!!!! I did not come here to bury Ceasar .... blah, blah, blah.

I see that firstfloor is not actively participating in this thread. Are we to conclude that this was a troll post just get everyone HOT?

Now to my point:

I mean let's face the facts folks. Uniting the religions is not going to stop the war! People fight wars for other reasons than religious one's and I'd pose that the book of James chapter 4 presents us with a fairly reasonable idea as to where all this sort of thing originates. Coupled with what we are learning about ourselves through the various sources of human insight, I think that there is another issue that needs to be addressed rather than trying to put the religions in a pot and give a stir.

Question:
What causes quarrels and what causes fights among you?

Possible Answer:
Is it not this, that your passions are at war within you?

Peace,
Eric.

[shunyadragon]

That's not how some of them are thinking these days. Most of whom I've chatted with over the years inform me that they are "more" Jewish now that they've accepted Y'shau HaMassiach. In fact it's a very strong movement which wants to distance itself from those who reject the Jewishness of Jesus. He was after all a Jew. Right? (He didn't become a Christian ) So when a Jewish person accepts another Jewish person as a prophet and even goes as far as to acknowledge said Jewish person to be their Messiah, that does that make them "Christian" they are still Jewish though they might not do their religion the same way as they have done in the past. I know that there are some Jews who convert to Christianity and then want to distance themselves from everything that's Jewish, I think that I felt that way in the beginning because reading the New Testament really shows so many of the Jews of that time are up in Jesus' grill most of the time; yet the earliest followers and teachers of Y'shua were Jews and it's becoming clearer these days that to really embrace a Jewish prophet one has to retain some of that Jewishness that goes along with that. Well, that's how I feel and I was once a pagan who accepted a Jewish man as my Savior/Messiah. (How weird is that?) I will always be an Englishman who was born and raised as a South African who had zero Christian beginnings and who accepted the message about a Jewish man who some Jews acknowledge as a their prophet and others go further to accept as their Messiah. I guess in some ways I've taken steps towards embracing some of that Jewishness by attend the Jewish college and being taught Jewish customs and language by a rabbi who has fully embraced the Jewish culture because I want to embrace Y'shua more fully. I know this sounds crazy but it's what some of us Gentiles do when we realize that Jesus was not a Gentile but a Jew and that we are some how short a few without embracing that Jewishness. I've always been fond of Jewish people and during my High School years was surrounded by Jews (and even ate their bacon ) I played rugby with them and in some ways I think I became enchanted by them for they were different in a nice way. Hey, I'm talking about the late sixties man. People have changed a lot since them. I even attended a Bar'mitzvah (I hope I spelled that right?) and I guess I've never really been a Jew-hater like some are and after I accepted Jesus as my Lord (the whole Christian terminolgy) I guess it never really dawned on me that he was a Jew until I began studying and that's how I came to be a Gentile (seeing as Christian was not my start) who embraced the religion of many Gentiles and then discovered that it was profoundly rooted in the Jewish culture, history and religion and well I guess that's why I bothered to learn Hebrew (still at baby level and fast forgetting the alphabet, dammit!!!!) Oh, well I know I'll get back to my studies as I have my course notes as well as a CD a tape and my Dictionary, but I need to get a proper Tanach. I've even seen a Torah scroll and nearly got to go to a very conservative Synagogue in Muizenberg in 2007. I tried to join some of the Messianic fellowships out here, but they are very suspicious of outsider having had some very hostile reactions from the natives. It's a sad world when people cannot accept each other and I hope that I can change my own heart to be more accepting of so many of the New religions that are wanting to be recognized as legitimate.

Baruch Hashem Adonai.

I spent a month in Isreal in 2000, and had talks with many of them, they are indeed legitimate, but remain Christians in Jewish garb. The Messianic Movement still embraces the traditional Trinitarian view of God, and remains a recent movement within Christianity that prefers a close association with its Jewish roots.

[Tanakh Keeper]

Most of whom I've chatted with over the years inform me that they are "more" Jewish now that they've accepted Y'shau HaMassiach.

If a person wants to delude themself, they are allowed to do so.

In fact it's a very strong movement which wants to distance itself from those who reject the Jewishness of Jesus. He was after all a Jew. Right?

Karl Marx was a Jew, so all Jews must be communist, right?

What makes a person adhere to Judaism is sharing the beliefs of Jewish traditions. Making up new beliefs and proclaiming oneself to be a member of that school of thought is meaningless. It is no different than if a person accepts Joseph Smith as a prophet and claims that they are fully Christian. And wants to inform other Christians of the truth.

Your feelings about how things should work have no bearing on Judaism and our traditions. If you want to become a Jew then you need to commit yourself to years of study with a qualified and authoritative teacher of Judaism. If you think that Jesus has anything to do with G-d or Judaism, then I’m sorry to tell you that the monies spent on your education were wasted.

It's a sad world when people cannot accept each other and I hope that I can change my own heart to be more accepting of so many of the New religions that are wanting to be recognized as legitimate.

Is Mormonism or Wicca on your agenda?

[Tanakh Keeper]

I spent a month in Isreal in 2000, and had talks with many of them, they are indeed legitimate, but remain Christians in Jewish garb. The Messianic Movement still embraces the traditional Trinitarian view of God, and remains a recent movement within Christianity that prefers a close association with its Jewish roots.

You are correct, shunyadragon. Messianic Jews and Hebrew Christians are legitimate Christians. For the most part, their participants were never Jewish to start with. They are just another, in a long line, of deceptive organizations.

[Cerebrum123]

[QUOTE=shunyadragon;3401698]

Again you are arguing from the perspective of a none believer and an incomplete knowledge of the Koran. Baha'u'llah is not a prophet, but the 'Return of Christ' as described in the Koran.

4:159 - There is none of the People of the Scripture who will certainly but believe in this before his death. And on the day of Awakening he will be a witness against them.

In Islamic tradition the Day of the Awakening is translated as the Day of Judgement and the Day of Resurrection in different translations, as when Christ returns and witnesses the Awakening. There may be wide disagreement among Muslims as the nature of the 'Return of Christ' as in the differences between Jewish and Christian understanding of the prophecies in the Torah, but nonetheless it is an acceptable understanding by many that according to the Koran Christ will Return.

Yes, your understanding of the Koran is limited to cookie cuter interpretations of limited verses with not an attempt to understand the Koran, but like many fanatical Muslims, as an agenda and vendetta against the Baha'i Faith.

shuny, you again show both ignorance and arrogance. The "Day of Judgement" in Islam is the very end of the world. They have prophet Isa(the Islamic version of Jesus) coming back and helping wipe out all of the Jews. Then they have Mohammed help Allah judge everyone, and he will help some into heaven(Muslims), and send some to hell(everyone else). They also have to destroy the "Dajjal" (whom Mohammed thought would be coming about 500 years after his own death, so much for that prophecy). Mohammed was a fraud, and he also was a murderous brigand. He broke his own "revelations", and was quite likely possessed by a demon (he actually at one point thought this himself, and was going to commit suicide, but "Gabriel" stopped him). Anyone who can call Mohammed a "prophet" obviously doesn't know much about the man, or is just as much a criminal as he was.

[headheart]

I spent a month in Isreal in 2000, and had talks with many of them, they are indeed legitimate, but remain Christians in Jewish garb. The Messianic Movement still embraces the traditional Trinitarian view of God, and remains a recent movement within Christianity that prefers a close association with its Jewish roots.

That's nice Frank, but I'm referring to a country I lived in for 50 years and to those I knew growing up from a child. You're lathering your comments with agnostic religious slur which doesn't really do much more than seek to divide people in favor of you own faint Baha'i filter. Perhaps we can discuss this when you've grown out of that habit.

Peace,
Eric.

[shunyadragon]

[QUOTE=Cerebrum123;3402092]

shuny, you again show both ignorance and arrogance. The "Day of Judgement" in Islam is the very end of the world. They have prophet Isa(the Islamic version of Jesus) coming back and helping wipe out all of the Jews. Then they have Mohammed help Allah judge everyone, and he will help some into heaven(Muslims), and send some to hell(everyone else). They also have to destroy the "Dajjal" (whom Mohammed thought would be coming about 500 years after his own death, so much for that prophecy). Mohammed was a fraud, and he also was a murderous brigand. He broke his own "revelations", and was quite likely possessed by a demon (he actually at one point thought this himself, and was going to commit suicide, but "Gabriel" stopped him). Anyone who can call Mohammed a "prophet" obviously doesn't know much about the man, or is just as much a criminal as he was.

Only by your interpretation, and that of fanatical Muslims. Go join their club. It sounds like your half way there.

[headheart]

If a person wants to delude themself, they are allowed to do so.

That's not a very nice thing to say and I'm sure that Jews reading this would find your tone offensive. I can appreciate that you have strong anti-Christian feelings and reject Jews who love Y'shua HaMassiach, but don't allow that or Frank's prejudiced input to cloud your vision.

Karl Marx was a Jew, so all Jews must be communist, right?

I've found that many of the Jews I'm friends with are very in liberal in their thinking but found that Jews who'd accepted Y'shua as Messiah were actually more interested in their roots than many of the Jews I've known and know.

What makes a person adhere to Judaism is sharing the beliefs of Jewish traditions. Making up new beliefs and proclaiming oneself to be a member of that school of thought is meaningless. It is no different than if a person accepts Joseph Smith as a prophet and claims that they are fully Christian. And wants to inform other Christians of the truth.

Your feelings about how things should work have no bearing on Judaism and our traditions. If you want to become a Jew then you need to commit yourself to years of study with a qualified and authoritative teacher of Judaism. If you think that Jesus has anything to do with G-d or Judaism, then I’m sorry to tell you that the monies spent on your education were wasted.

Exactly and it's been my observation that those Jews who accept Y'shua apply themselves most diligently to studies and I've not found the same passion within many of those I've known and know. A different world my friend and perhaps one day I'll show you how that is, but I'm getting old and daresay one day my time will come to stand before Adonai.

Is Mormonism or Wicca on your agenda?

This is a very strange thing for you to say. I don't understand. Well, it seems that our conversation has come to an end for you are resorting to the sort of strategy that I've witnessed others do, but I did not expect this from you.

El Shaddai.

[shunyadragon]

That's nice Frank, but I'm referring to a country I lived in for 50 years and to those I knew growing up from a child. You're lathering your comments with agnostic religious slur which doesn't really do much more than seek to divide people in favor of you own faint Baha'i filter. Perhaps we can discuss this when you've grown out of that habit.

Peace,
Eric.

I actually do not consider it important nor as a reference of authority on your part where you grew up. I simply use academic sources and people who call themselves Messianic Jews I met in Israel as to how they described there beliefs. How one dresses, ceremony, and what language one uses does not determine what their religious belief is, neither does their ethnicity. I personally know Jewish Christians in Hillsborough, NC, and with them there is no confusion on the issue..

Disagree politely,and not with venom and abuse in your Dialogue. It is very well documented by the beliefs of the Messianic Jews, that they are Trinitarian Christians, and the only difference is the emphasis in the Jewish roots in Christianity. If they would remain faithful to the Jewish dogma and belief in the nature of God, than I would call the Jews.

I do not agree with Tanakh Keeper on most things, but our dialogue has been civil and polite for years

[Cerebrum123]

[QUOTE=shunyadragon;3402183]

Only by your interpretation, and that of fanatical Muslims. Go join their club. It sounds like your half way there.

Just my interpretation?!?!!? Again, you show arrogance and ignorance (the arrogance is by FAR the more irritating trait). I have been studying Islam for some time now, and I have read far more than just the Quran (I will admit that I didn't read it straight through in one sitting, but that doesn't mean I don't know what it teaches). I have read that ahadith(Mohammed's words as recorded by his followers), and some of the Sira(Mohammed's biography) as well. We aren't dealing with apocalyptic prophecy here, we are dealing with the Quran, and Mohammed's own words to his followers. Mohammed was quite clear in his words, and the interpretation isn't just mine, but the interpretation that has been used since the beginning of Islam(only more recently have people been rejecting it, and trying to hide Mohammed's awful deeds). He was a murderous, child molesting, rapist, brigand, who validated his actions with "revelations" from Allah. shuny, you give off an air like you know what you are talking about, but you don't. If you did, you wouldn't be defending the monster that is Mohammed.
Obviously you aren't worth dealing with, so I am putting you on ignore.

[headheart]

[QUOTE=shunyadragon;3402183]

Only by your interpretation, and that of fanatical Muslims. Go join their club. It sounds like your half way there.

I'm also reading Brum's comments and agree with you that he is going to hard at this and needs to back off!!!!

I could share similar insights to the one's I have (above) had with my Jewish friends and associates, world colleagues and casual acquaintances with my Muslim friends and associates, world colleagues and casual acquaintances but it seems that threads of this sort seldom if ever do nothing more than to distance people.

As it is clear there are many angry views being expressed at the moment I am going to retire to Shiloh.

Shalom,
Erik

[headheart]

I actually do not consider it important nor as a reference of authority on your part where you grew up.

Really? You are a regular little tyrant aren't you? I think that my views are relevant to a discussion which is about harmony between the three major Monotheistic religion and daresay I'm wondering what exactly you have in mind for unifying Christian, Judaism and Islam other than saying they should all become Baha'i. Oh come on Frank, you've shown right from your first posts to this thread that you are more concerned about sending out your message of reconciliation through Baha'i than actually understanding what each person believes. Your generalizing stance is duly noted.

Peace is possible when people learn to understand each other.

Eric.