Judachrislam

[Cerebrum123]

[QUOTE=headheart;3402222]

I'm also reading Brum's comments and agree with you that he is going to hard at this and needs to back off!!!!

I could share similar insights to the one's I have (above) had with my Jewish friends and associates, world colleagues and casual acquaintances with my Muslim friends and associates, world colleagues and casual acquaintances but it seems that threads of this sort seldom if ever do nothing more than to distance people.

As it is clear there are many angry views being expressed at the moment I am going to retire to Shiloh.

Shalom,
Erik

Erik, I am have been studying Islam for years, and I have been trying to understand the teachings of Islam. I have absolutely nothing against any particular Muslim(unless they have followed some of these teachings). In fact, I have friends (who I know online) who are Muslim. I have tried to ask them certain things about their understanding of Mohammed's teachings, and luckily they don't really follow what Mohammed actually taught. Also my neurologist is Muslim, and I really want to be able to share the Gospel of Christ with him, but I don't know how to go about doing this. In fact, it's because I have met so many nice Muslims that I decided to look at the roots of the tree of Islam. I had already seen some good fruits come from Muslims, but I was also seeing a lot of bad fruit too. On further investigation, I found out that the roots were indeed rotten(remember I strictly talking the teachings here).
As I have tried explaining to many people, you need to look at the teachings of a particular religion, and not the acts of individuals who claim to follow said religion. Often you can find people who have been taught things that are good, but end up doing horrible things, and you can find the opposite too. My experience with Islam so far, has made it clear that many Muslims(not all) don't know what the Quran, Hadith, and Sira teach, otherwise I am sure that they would reject Islam completely.

[headheart]

There is reconciliation in the Baha'i Faith

Okay, I'll bite.

I don't agree. I think that people choose what beliefs they feel comfortable with and that within the three religions mentioned in the opening post there is so much diversity and freedom to decide what each person believes. Now you might not think so but I've talked with members of all three religions and found that most are on their own little mission in life and that most go through the motions and then get on with their lives after the meetings are over.
There will always be those who are leaders in movements who have their inner core of devoted one's but most of the members of these and other religions have to get on with the business of surviving in a world that is not getting cheaper to live in. Most just do the G-d bit on Sunday, or Saturday depending and then live lives that are not so day after day needing to be religious. In fact of the thousands of people I've met in a very culturally diverse country, I find that that religion is not the primary concern, except as I have said for those so gainfully employed or engaged.
It's a false idea to assume that because people are Christians or Muslim or Jews that they eat, sleep and drink their religion. Most try to live lives that are loving and caring and some don't and end up in a world of trouble then become fanatical for awhile and once they are sorted with a job and friends they get on with their lives.
Religion of the sort that I see you talking everyday here is fanatical and dangerous and I cannot see how your claim of your view of Baha'i can serve anyone else but yourself.

It's a pity that you hate Christians the way you do, but I have come to agree with those who have pointed this out to me in the past that you are a nasty piece of work and I really hope you take this too heart and pray to the Source (your name for God/s) and ask for wisdom and guidance in the way that you practice it for if your words teach us anything it is that you are a very nasty man and need to be taken up on your Papas knee and given a good old fashioned spanking.

Peace,
Eric.

[headheart]

Erik, I am have been studying Islam for years, and I have been trying to understand the teachings of Islam.

That's good. I have learned more from my associations with Muslims over the years. I worked with a very devout Muslim and wow he was extremely intelligent and his ancestors were in fact married into the British crown. Or something like that. He was very enlightened (this is 1980) and I learned more about how to behave from him than most of my other work associates. There were actually many Muslims working with me and I must say there were exemplary in their manner and their work ethic, beyond anything I witnessed from others. Obviously because we both held to a very high code of behavior we had much in common.

I shall continue my reply in a bit.

Eric.

[shunyadragon]

Okay, I'll bite.

I don't agree. I think that people choose what beliefs they feel comfortable with and that within the three religions mentioned in the opening post there is so much diversity and freedom to decide what each person believes. Now you might not think so but I've talked with members of all three religions and found that most are on their own little mission in life and that most go through the motions and then get on with their lives after the meetings are over.
There will always be those who are leaders in movements who have their inner core of devoted one's but most of the members of these and other religions have to get on with the business of surviving in a world that is not getting cheaper to live in. Most just do the G-d bit on Sunday, or Saturday depending and then live lives that are not so day after day needing to be religious. In fact of the thousands of people I've met in a very culturally diverse country, I find that that religion is not the primary concern, except as I have said for those so gainfully employed or engaged.
It's a false idea to assume that because people are Christians or Muslim or Jews that they eat, sleep and drink their religion. Most try to live lives that are loving and caring and some don't and end up in a world of trouble then become fanatical for awhile and once they are sorted with a job and friends they get on with their lives.
Religion of the sort that I see you talking everyday here is fanatical and dangerous and I cannot see how your claim of your view of Baha'i can serve anyone else but yourself.

The above is a bit puzzling and does not address much in the subject of the thread., such as problems of epistemology. It a rather clumsy attack of slicing and dicing personal attack with a dull knife without a coherent thrust of any type of dialogue nor argument.

It's a pity that you hate Christians the way you do, but I have come to agree with those who have pointed this out to me in the past that you are a nasty piece of work and I really hope you take this too heart and pray to the Source (your name for God/s) and ask for wisdom and guidance in the way that you practice it for if your words teach us anything it is that you are a very nasty man and need to be taken up on your Papas knee and given a good old fashioned spanking.

Peace,
Eric.

More 'Mr.Hyde snake bites,' and more telling other people what the believe, hate or like. It is unfortunate that your earlier reasonable dialogue has turned venomous of late. Hate is strong smear word slandering me that does not remotely resemble anything I have posted.

I have been here for many years and I can produce a long list of friends on this site that do not share my beliefs from atheists to strong theists, and I have earned their respect over the years. Some I know personally.

[headheart]

Oh, you love your little word games, Frank. It's a pity that you are allowed to post on this forum for you true intentions are becoming clearer and clearer with each word you write. I don't mind what you say any more for I'm learning as those who you've distanced with your supercilious diatribe, that you are not worth the words.

Get a LIFE.

Eric.

[headheart]

I have absolutely nothing against any particular Muslim(unless they have followed some of these teachings).

I must admit that there are those who are enlightened and as with all religions those who blindly follow what they are told or what they read without thinking it through. It's my conclusion that people are basically the same in this regard and I cannot say for sure but there do seem to be many books that have been published by Muslims since 9/11 presenting clear teachings with regard to so many issues that one cannot help but wonder if Islam is going to play a major role in world reforms. It's a religion that requires considerable studying and thought but there will always be those who use it as a weapon for their own agenda. Nothings new on that score.

In fact, I have friends (who I know online) who are Muslim. I have tried to ask them certain things about their understanding of Mohammed's teachings, and luckily they don't really follow what Mohammed actually taught.

That's common to all religions. Only some folks become scholars, others just get on with their lives and don't have time to pursue that as well as getting their day to day chores done. They assemble their beliefs bit by bit and rely on the leaders to guide them wisely. A big responsibility but not everyone is sound in their thinking!

Also my neurologist is Muslim, and I really want to be able to share the Gospel of Christ with him, but I don't know how to go about doing this.

I must admit I'm not that good at apologetics but I keep studying and trying to learn the best approach. So far I think that Os Guiness has a great way of doing it.


"The Threat of Islam" by Sociologist Os Guinness

In fact, it's because I have met so many nice Muslims that I decided to look at the roots of the tree of Islam. I had already seen some good fruits come from Muslims, but I was also seeing a lot of bad fruit too. On further investigation, I found out that the roots were indeed rotten(remember I strictly talking the teachings here).

I'm less inclined to do that because I think people have their own unique beliefs, regardless of the pressure to conform. The power of this sort of change is everywhere and the clan mentality has always been something that is set to crumble.

As I have tried explaining to many people, you need to look at the teachings of a particular religion, and not the acts of individuals who claim to follow said religion.

We differ. To me the way that a person behaves is paramount and I acknowledge that each person is unique and though some get snowed by cult thinking I have always considered that to be an extreme and dangerous minority. Though I do wander about the anti-Christian sentiments of the rising beast of evangelical unbelief. (a strange phenomena, indeed?)

Often you can find people who have been taught things that are good, but end up doing horrible things, and you can find the opposite too. My experience with Islam so far, has made it clear that many Muslims(not all) don't know what the Quran, Hadith, and Sira teach, otherwise I am sure that they would reject Islam completely.

I think that sacred text adherence is being replaced more and more by enlightened thinking about beliefs and we can in part thank the four horseman of the apocalypse for writing books that religious people can read and unbind their grave clothes enough to be less uptight and more into loving in a world crying out in need.

Peace,
Eric

[Cerebrum123]

I must admit that there are those who are enlightened and as with all religions those who blindly follow what they are told or what they read without thinking it through. It's my conclusion that people are basically the same in this regard and I cannot say for sure but there do seem to be many books that have been published by Muslims since 9/11 presenting clear teachings with regard to so many issues that one cannot help but wonder if Islam is going to play a major role in world reforms. It's a religion that requires considerable studying and thought but there will always be those who use it as a weapon for their own agenda. Nothings new on that score.



That's common to all religions. Only some folks become scholars, others just get on with their lives and don't have time to pursue that as well as getting their day to day chores done. They assemble their beliefs bit by bit and rely on the leaders to guide them wisely. A big responsibility but not everyone is sound in their thinking!



I must admit I'm not that good at apologetics but I keep studying and trying to learn the best approach. So far I think that Os Guiness has a great way of doing it.


"The Threat of Islam" by Sociologist Os Guinness



I'm less inclined to do that because I think people have their own unique beliefs, regardless of the pressure to conform. The power of this sort of change is everywhere and the clan mentality has always been something that is set to crumble.



We differ. To me the way that a person behaves is paramount and I acknowledge that each person is unique and though some get snowed by cult thinking I have always considered that to be an extreme and dangerous minority. Though I do wander about the anti-Christian sentiments of the rising beast of evangelical unbelief. (a strange phenomena, indeed?)



I think that sacred text adherence is being replaced more and more by enlightened thinking about beliefs and we can in part thank the four horseman of the apocalypse for writing books that religious people can read and unbind their grave clothes enough to be less uptight and more into loving in a world crying out in need.

Peace,
Eric

I should perhaps clarify one of my earlier statements. When dealing with a religion, you need to look at it's teachings rather than the actions of a few followers(many people dismiss Christianity just because of the actions of a few people, often someone who hurt them personally), but when dealing with a person, you need to know what it is they actually believe as opposed to what the religions actual teachings are. I should have said that a little clearer, and I hope that we do see eye to eye with this clarification. If we don't well then there's probably not a whole lot I can do
Thanks for the response though,and for being civil.

[headheart]

I should perhaps clarify one of my earlier statements. When dealing with a religion, you need to look at it's teachings rather than the actions of a few followers(many people dismiss Christianity just because of the actions of a few people, often someone who hurt them personally), but when dealing with a person, you need to know what it is they actually believe as opposed to what the religions actual teachings are. I should have said that a little clearer, and I hope that we do see eye to eye with this clarification. If we don't well then there's probably not a whole lot I can do
Thanks for the response though,and for being civil.

I agree with the bold part.

I tend to avoid dealing with religions directly because they're generally a vague approximation of what it's adherents actually believe in a landscape that is evolving at such a pace that it is impossible to know until dust settles.
My own beliefs are so at variance with traditional Christian beliefs that I find myself having to rename my faith tag to Smeagologist (as far as I know I'm the only one but I've met others who seem to be close enough to kiss) I hold to the doctrine of G-d as per the Hebrew Shema and the doctrine of man as per a fusion of Theology, Biology, Science, Philosophy and what I'm learning from Neuroscientists and am currently reading a book about TPP. I'm of the view that one person at a time is not a bad idea as opposed to one religion at a time. This song certainly says it all for me.


Malcolm and Alwyn - The World Needs Jesus (esp. I need Jesus )

Eric

[shunyadragon]

Oh, you love your little word games, Frank. It's a pity that you are allowed to post on this forum for you true intentions are becoming clearer and clearer with each word you write. I don't mind what you say any more for I'm learning as those who you've distanced with your supercilious diatribe, that you are not worth the words.

Get a LIFE.

Eric.

These are not word games, your methods of communicating are a serious problem. Like wise, 'Get a Life.' or possibly a shrink or serious medications may be in order. For my own benifit, most of your posts will be on ignore.

[headheart]

Is Mormonism or Wicca on your agenda?

Think about it?


From Mormonism to Wicca to Islam - and Couldn't Find the TRUTH in Any of Them!!

[Tanakh Keeper]

I do not agree with Tanakh Keeper on most things, but our dialogue has been civil and polite for years

Yes, I agree. We disagree on most topics, but I have found you to be a polite poster.

[Tanakh Keeper]

From Mormonism to Wicca to Islam - and Couldn't Find the TRUTH in Any of Them!!

Mormons call themselves Christian. Do you consider them to be Christian?

[Cerebrum123]

Mormons call themselves Christian. Do you consider them to be Christian?

For many Christians that I have met, that question is a yes and a no. Some are and some aren't, the same thing can be said for people calling themselves Christian too, but Mormonism has doctrines that are quite different than what Christianity teaches.

[headheart]

Mormons call themselves Christian. Do you consider them to be Christian?

There are Jews who call themselves Jewish but have no interest in loving G-d and are just going through the motions of the religion that they learned from their folks. As you've been very slow at warming to me, I am writing this with a considerable degree of reluctance; however I have had some very interesting discussion with a high-order Bishop in the LDS who could wipe the floor with most of the thinkers on this forum and though he has a very different set of teachings in respect of what we call the doctrines of Salvation I've not doubt that he is in a very soft place with G-d. I have also had the pleasure of talking to many Jehovah's witnesses, some who are clearly no more than religious observers where there are others who are absolutely in earnest about loving G-d and obeying G-d. One might simplify this to does a person who talks about G-d actually have more than the talk? Has it become something more? That is always where in opinion the rubber meets the road.

Y'shua HaMassiach taught a parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector which addresses this:

Luke 18:9-14
New International Version (NIV)
The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector

9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

The apostle Paul said something that makes a similar point in Romans 9: (but the words will be harder for a Jew to accept)

Romans 9
New International Version (NIV)

God’s Sovereign Choice

6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” ( Gen. 21:12 ) 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

Shalom,
Erik.

[Tanakh Keeper]

Mormons call themselves Christian. Do you consider them to be Christian?

There are Jews who call themselves Jewish but have no interest in loving G-d and are just going through the motions of the religion that they learned from their folks.

The fact that you completely avoided answering my question indicates that you understood my point.

When a person expresses a belief that is completely at odds with the traditional understanding of that belief, then the person expressing that differing belief is not an adherent of that school of thought. No matter how much the person wants to be considered a member. This applies whether an individual is a Mormon claiming to be a full Christian, or a Hebrew Christian claiming to be a Jew.

And whether I’m warm to you or not is irrelevant. If someone is claiming absurdities about my religion, then I’m going to correct them.