Starting with God, the Bible or Jesus?

[headheart]

Those detractors belonged to competing religions. You can't prove someone is an atheist by arguing that the god they believe in is the wrong god.

You've really got to work on that sense of humour guy.


Peace,
Eric

[headheart]

Whether they had a label for it is beside the point. There certainly were people who did not believe in any gods.

The lack of any particular belief -- in gods, leprechauns, flying saucers, or whatever -- does not constitute a system of thinking, developed or otherwise. But there did exist systems of thinking (usually called schools of philosophy) that were recognizably ancestral to modern skepticism.

Alrighty then.

The closest possible reference to this sort of idea might be found in the book of Acts:

Acts 17:16-34
New International Version (NIV)
To Listen

In Athens

16 While Paul was waiting for them in Athens, he was greatly distressed to see that the city was full of idols. 17 So he reasoned in the synagogue with both Jews and God-fearing Greeks, as well as in the marketplace day by day with those who happened to be there. 18 A group of Epicurean and Stoic philosophers began to debate with him. Some of them asked, “What is this babbler trying to say?” Others remarked, “He seems to be advocating foreign gods.” They said this because Paul was preaching the good news about Jesus and the resurrection. 19 Then they took him and brought him to a meeting of the Areopagus, where they said to him, “May we know what this new teaching is that you are presenting? 20 You are bringing some strange ideas to our ears, and we would like to know what they mean.” 21 (All the Athenians and the foreigners who lived there spent their time doing nothing but talking about and listening to the latest ideas.)

22 Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: “People of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. 23 For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: to an unknown god. So you are ignorant of the very thing you worship —and this is what I am going to proclaim to you.

24 “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28 ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ (a) As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’ (b)

29 “Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by human design and skill. 30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

32 When they heard about the resurrection of the dead, some of them sneered, but others said, “We want to hear you again on this subject.” 33 At that, Paul left the Council. 34 Some of the people became followers of Paul and believed. Among them was Dionysius, a member of the Areopagus, also a woman named Damaris, and a number of others.

Footnotes:
(a) Acts 17:28 From the Cretan philosopher Epimenides
(b) Acts 17:28 From the Cilician Stoic philosopher Aratus

[Tassman]

Eric, IIRC, Christians were referred to as atheists by some of their early detractors.

Indeed they were, because they did not believe in the state gods etc.

[ZackMartin]

2. Conservapedia > History of Atheism

Eric, I'd be very careful using "Conservapedia" as a source for anything. Some of the articles are good, but a lot of them are just ideological hatchet jobs.

[headheart]

Eric, I'd be very careful using "Conservapedia" as a source for anything. Some of the articles are good, but a lot of them are just ideological hatchet jobs.

Yeah, it was a deliberate bad pick. Yet the other one was right on the button. Can't go wrong with Cambridge.

1. History of Modern Atheism > Investigating Atheism > The University of Cambridge

Peace,
Eric

[Doug Shaver]

You've really got to work on that sense of humour guy.

Not the first time I've heard that.

And I have never disagreed with it. It's a shortcoming that I've always had to live with.

[Doug Shaver]

The closest possible reference to this sort of idea might be found in the book of Acts:

In the passage you quoted, there are indirect references to two pagan philosophers. I fail to see the relevance of those references to what I was saying.

And just by the way, I don't regard the Acts of the Apostles as a work of reliable history. Paul might or might not have made a speech of that sort, but I'm not going to assume he did just because Acts says he did.

[Doug Shaver]

Can't go wrong with Cambridge.

Yes, you can -- unless they're infallible, and they are not. You can go wrong trusting any authority.

[shunyadragon]

Yes, you can -- unless they're infallible, and they are not. You can go wrong trusting any authority.

Actually I can cite a very good example of a Cambridge hatchet job in an area of my expertise. The wrote a two volume tome of the History of China and held it up as 'The Authority' to all the academic world. I can document where they did a hatchet job on parts of it, simply by relying on old sources. Actually much of the rest was cut and past, and lacked any academic imagination to come up with something comprehensive and new for the world.

I consider Cambridge sort of a University Academic Museum, for people to go see how they did things 100 years ago.

[headheart]

Yes, you can -- unless they're infallible, and they are not. You can go wrong trusting any authority.

Good grief man, no one expects anyone to be infallible.
If you are going to be that dismissive then there's simply not point in discussing anything at all.
I was hoping that we might at least try and discuss his message.
This old bench has suddenly become much too hard for me too sit on anymore.

Auf wiedersehen
Eric

[headheart]

Actually I can cite a very good example of a Cambridge hatchet job in an area of my expertise. The wrote a two volume tome of the History of China and held it up as 'The Authority' to all the academic world. I can document where they did a hatchet job on parts of it, simply by relying on old sources. Actually much of the rest was cut and past, and lacked any academic imagination to come up with something comprehensive and new for the world.

I consider Cambridge sort of a University Academic Museum, for people to go see how they did things 100 years ago.

Ah_____that's perfectly understandable with any history of any country and especially with the British history of China. I've read a little but personally I'd much prefer reading a history of China by those who lived there.
I've got one book that I'm planning to read, but it's really, really long and I generally enjoy reading short, punchy books. Or, short detailed books. (they just take longer) I am very, very slow at reading and almost prefer listening to a good lecture.
Oh, I do have a few University level lectures on various religions but when it comes to discussing the matter of God where does one begin? I find that there is more to be gleaned from meditation upon sacred texts or meditation itself (though I do not like TM, or any of those techniques where one makes one's mind a blank)
One question for you, Frank.
You mentioned the matter of clearing your mind so as to achieve a state of blankness. Is that right? Something about your Buddhist leanings. Would you please elaborate?

Peace,
Eric.

[shunyadragon]

Ah_____that's perfectly understandable with any history of any country and especially with the British history of China. I've read a little but personally I'd much prefer reading a history of China by those who lived there.

I am not as tolerant here, and consider it deplorable academics, not understandable. The information was available to them. This also goes for supposedly one of the most revered books on Jade edited by Keverne. It has more errors on jade than a freshman essay. I walked, road bicycle, took rains and planes all over China for nine years, and interviewed archeologists, geologists, and historians. I also read and translated some stuff. I found the Chinese also had their academic agenda which hurts their work, but they are more on the ball and aware, and were somewhat amused at the western incompetence concerning the history of China.

I've got one book that I'm planning to read, but it's really, really long and I generally enjoy reading short, punchy books. Or, short detailed books. (they just take longer) I am very, very slow at reading and almost prefer listening to a good lecture.

At present it is a little difficult long distance to help, and not the thread topic, so for know I will go on.

Oh, I do have a few University level lectures on various religions but when it comes to discussing the matter of God where does one begin? I find that there is more to be gleaned from meditation upon sacred texts or meditation itself (though I do not like TM, or any of those techniques where one makes one's mind a blank)
One question for you, Frank.
You mentioned the matter of clearing your mind so as to achieve a state of blankness. Is that right? Something about your Buddhist leanings. Would you please elaborate?

Peace,
Eric.

TM as practice is OK, but it is muddled with added mystic tofu, and the unfortunate belief that it is the only way. It is also deceptive as what the whole context of TM is in religious belief. Dull and bore the mind and you are easy pickins for conversion.

I think the description ' the matter of clearing your mind so as to achieve a state of blankness,' is misleading. I will give it some thought and write another post with clarification.

The west does tend to go over board and seek, one thing to solve all problems. The following is sort of an approach to the problem I like, too much of a good thing.

One koan can enlighten the mind, ten thousand koans is just a bunch of noise.

Meditation may calm the mind to see the world more clearly, too much Zazen can bore and dull the mind.

[headheart]

I am not as tolerant here, and consider it deplorable academics, not understandable. The information was available to them. This also goes for supposedly one of the most revered books on Jade edited by Keverne. It has more errors on jade than a freshman essay. I walked, road bicycle, took rains and planes all over China for nine years, and interviewed archeologists, geologists, and historians. I also read and translated some stuff. I found the Chinese also had their academic agenda which hurts their work, but they are more on the ball and aware, and were somewhat amused at the western incompetence concerning the history of China.

I feel the same way when I read, hear, see stuff about "the struggle" in South Africa by people who are either uninformed or agenda driven, but eventually I guess I learn to ignore it and just get on with my life. Some things will never change no matter how much one complains about it.

At present it is a little difficult long distance to help, and not the thread topic, so for know I will go on.

Don't worry about that, I'm going to be busy for at least a decade before I begin thinking about reading anything about China or for that matter anywhere. I'm studying a combination so many other things that I don't see myself getting into something like that until I'm done and have at least one book written. (If I ever do)

TM as practice is OK, but it is muddled with added mystic tofu, and the unfortunate belief that it is the only way. It is also deceptive as what the whole context of TM is in religious belief. Dull and bore the mind and you are easy pickins for conversion.

I tried when I was younger combined with smoking nice big joints. In the end the joints were better.

I think the description ' the matter of clearing your mind so as to achieve a state of blankness,' is misleading. I will give it some thought and write another post with clarification.

The west does tend to go over board and seek, one thing to solve all problems. The following is sort of an approach to the problem I like, too much of a good thing.

One koan can enlighten the mind, ten thousand koans is just a bunch of noise.

Meditation may calm the mind to see the world more clearly, too much Zazen can bore and dull the mind.

I just left it all behind and began moving. I miss not being able to have mountain walks in this flat land.

Peace,
Eric

[Doug Shaver]

Good grief man, no one expects anyone to be infallible.

If you say that, having said "You can't go wrong trusting _____," then you contradict yourself.

Besides, "no one expects anyone to be infallible" is demonstrably untrue. Are you going to deny that some people do expect the writers of the New Testament to have been infallible?

[headheart]

If you say that, having said "You can't go wrong trusting _____," then you contradict yourself.

Doug,
I'm never that good a double-clutch quoting but you seem to have misquoted me and missed the (post 125)

Besides, "no one expects anyone to be infallible" is demonstrably untrue. Are you going to deny that some people do expect the writers of the New Testament to have been infallible?

Not at all. In fact it was my experience that some so forcefully asserted it that I found myself having to either agree wholeheartedly or find myself labelled a heretic. I don't hold to the infallibility idea with respect to the Bible ( Christianity sacred texts ) though I do have a view of texts in general be they labelled "sacred" or other which finds me being guided to the doorway and given the proverbial kick in the butt.

Peace,
Eric.