Starting with God, the Bible or Jesus?

[Doug Shaver]

Doug,
I'm never that good a double-clutch quoting but you seem to have misquoted me

You're right, I did. That was very careless of me, and I don't have even a half-baked excuse. My apologies.

and missed the

No, I saw it, but there are various ways to interpret a wink. Sometimes it means "I'm not being serious." Sometimes it means something else.

[headheart]

You're right, I did. That was very careless of me, and I don't have even a half-baked excuse. My apologies.


No, I saw it, but there are various ways to interpret a wink. Sometimes it means "I'm not being serious." Sometimes it means something else.

My apologies Doug, I think this has something to do with the fact that I've been getting my cage rattled too furiously and the result is a combination of a series of senior moments and just times when the old grey-matter won't go. I plead the latter as I'm easily panicked when I'm left alone for too long.

Do I have your agreement to explore some of the ideas expressed in this passage?

Acts 17:16-34
New International Version (NIV)
To Listen

In Athens

16 While Paul was waiting for them in Athens, he was greatly distressed to see that the city was full of idols. 17 So he reasoned in the synagogue with both Jews and God-fearing Greeks, as well as in the marketplace day by day with those who happened to be there. 18 A group of Epicurean and Stoic philosophers began to debate with him. Some of them asked, “What is this babbler trying to say?” Others remarked, “He seems to be advocating foreign gods.” They said this because Paul was preaching the good news about Jesus and the resurrection. 19 Then they took him and brought him to a meeting of the Areopagus, where they said to him, “May we know what this new teaching is that you are presenting? 20 You are bringing some strange ideas to our ears, and we would like to know what they mean.” 21 (All the Athenians and the foreigners who lived there spent their time doing nothing but talking about and listening to the latest ideas.)

22 Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: “People of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. 23 For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: to an unknown god. So you are ignorant of the very thing you worship —and this is what I am going to proclaim to you.

24 “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28 ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ (a) As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’ (b)

29 “Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by human design and skill. 30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

32 When they heard about the resurrection of the dead, some of them sneered, but others said, “We want to hear you again on this subject.” 33 At that, Paul left the Council. 34 Some of the people became followers of Paul and believed. Among them was Dionysius, a member of the Areopagus, also a woman named Damaris, and a number of others.

Footnotes:
(a) Acts 17:28 From the Cretan philosopher Epimenides
(b) Acts 17:28 From the Cilician Stoic philosopher Aratus

Peace,
Eric

[Doug Shaver]

Do I have your agreement to explore some of the ideas expressed in this passage?

Exploration, as the term is normally used, involves efforts to discover something not yet known (perhaps only to oneself, perhaps to anyone). If you think you know something about that passage that I don't know already, I will listen, provided you are prepared to tell me how you yourself came to know it.

[headheart]

Exploration, as the term is normally used, involves efforts to discover something not yet known (perhaps only to oneself, perhaps to anyone). If you think you know something about that passage that I don't know already, I will listen, provided you are prepared to tell me how you yourself came to know it.

Give me awhile to think about this and when I'm done thinking I'll give you a buzz.

Peace,
Eric.

[headheart]

Exploration, as the term is normally used, involves efforts to discover something not yet known (perhaps only to oneself, perhaps to anyone). If you think you know something about that passage that I don't know already, I will listen, provided you are prepared to tell me how you yourself came to know it.

What do I mean by 'explore some of the ideas expressed in the passage'?

1. Read the passage in it's context. (the book of Acts)
2. Read it in the same way that I would read the front page article of any Newspaper. (except "The Sun")
3. As it is a translated work, I'd be careful to examine that too.
4. Being that I have limited skills and resources, I'd consort a number of different commentaries.
5. Because I've enjoyed textual criticism in the past, I'd make sure that I'd read up on that too.
6. I'd also make sure that I study it's historical context too.
7. If I could find any Archaeological information, I'd make sure that I have that at my finger tips too.
8. I'd also be careful to abide by the process referred to as Hermeneutics. (which generally includes points 1-7)
9. While I am busy doing this I'd spend time in prayer, meditation and contemplation to focus my mind.
10. Finally, I'd present a few ideas for discussion and wait for a response.

Savvy,
Eric.

[shunyadragon]

I tried when I was younger combined with smoking nice big joints. In the end the joints were better.

What you had was some kind of 'experience' with drugs and attempt at meditation. That combo will really dull and bore the mind.

I just left it all behind and began moving. I miss not being able to have mountain walks in this flat land.

Peace,
Eric

Just a note at present, detachment from assumptions, motivations, and the necessity of anything, and considering the universal are important aspects of my journey using meditation, contemplation and prayer. It does not represent any one of the many specific disciplines such as TM and Zazen. An over emphasis on any one 'way' can be too much of a 'good thing' and a barrier to going beyond, a similar problem exists for clinging too tenuously to any one belief system. The problem of 'Clinging' is one of the important aspects of Buddhist thought.

An important part of the process is establish rewarding relationships with the diverse physical, religious, and cultural attributes of our world, including nature and science, and avoiding clinging relationships with any one thing.

[headheart]

What you had was some kind of 'experience' with drugs and attempt at meditation. That combo will really dull and bore the mind.

I'd beg to differ but then I could not expect you to possibly know exactly what I went through from 1975-1976 and again from 1984-1991 Let's just say I had the best of both worlds and soared with the fire birds and plummeted to the depths in the company of hateful shadows. I could tell you more, but I'd rather not.

Just a note at present, detachment from assumptions, motivations, and the necessity of anything, and considering the universal are important aspects of my journey using meditation, contemplation and prayer. It does not represent any one of the many specific disciplines such as TM and Zazen. An over emphasis on any one 'way' can be too much of a 'good thing' and a barrier to going beyond, a similar problem exists for clinging too tenuously to any one belief system. The problem of 'Clinging' is one of the important aspects of Buddhist thought.

An important part of the process is establish rewarding relationships with the diverse physical, religious, and cultural attributes of our world, including nature and science, and avoiding clinging relationships with any one thing.

Yes.

I'm not sure exactly how much Jungian Analysis helped me forward but I'd say that it must have played a part in my own recovery from the brink of insanity. I could tell you more, but I'd rather not.

Peace,
Eric.

[Doug Shaver]

Exploration, as the term is normally used, involves efforts to discover something not yet known (perhaps only to oneself, perhaps to anyone). If you think you know something about that passage that I don't know already, I will listen, provided you are prepared to tell me how you yourself came to know it.

What do I mean by 'explore some of the ideas expressed in the passage'?

1. Read the passage in it's context. (the book of Acts)

Of course.

2. Read it in the same way that I would read the front page article of any Newspaper. (except "The Sun")

I have no idea how you read newspapers. I know how I read them. I cannot think of a reason to read an ancient religious document the same way.

3. As it is a translated work, I'd be careful to examine that too.

Obviously a good idea.

4. Being that I have limited skills and resources, I'd consort a number of different commentaries.
5. Because I've enjoyed textual criticism in the past, I'd make sure that I'd read up on that too.
6. I'd also make sure that I study it's historical context too.
7. If I could find any Archaeological information, I'd make sure that I have that at my finger tips too.

That would all seem to be reasonable for the study of any ancient document. Also for quite a few modern documents . . . maybe all of them, depending on just what one is trying to learn from them.

8. I'd also be careful to abide by the process referred to as Hermeneutics. (which generally includes points 1-7)

There does not seem to be only one such process to abide by.

9. While I am busy doing this I'd spend time in prayer, meditation and contemplation to focus my mind.

I suppose I would, too, if I were religious.

10. Finally, I'd present a few ideas for discussion and wait for a response.

My main idea about the Acts of the Apostles is that it is a work of fiction composed by an unknown person, and probably redacted by at least one other unknown person, sometime during the second century CE. Would you like to respond to that?



Savvy,
Eric.[/QUOTE]

[headheart]

Doug's question restated by Eric:
What do I mean by 'explore some of the ideas expressed in the passage'?

Eric's answer:
1. Read the passage in it's context. (the book of Acts)

Doug's reply: Of course.

Eric's answer:
2. Read it in the same way that I would read the front page article of any Newspaper. (except "The Sun")

Doug's reply: I have no idea how you read newspapers. I know how I read them. I cannot think of a reason to read an ancient religious document the same way.

Eric's answer:
3. As it is a translated work, I'd be careful to examine that too.

Doug's reply: Obviously a good idea.

Eric's answer:
4. Being that I have limited skills and resources, I'd consort a number of different commentaries.
5. Because I've enjoyed textual criticism in the past, I'd make sure that I'd read up on that too.
6. I'd also make sure that I study it's historical context too.
7. If I could find any Archaeological information, I'd make sure that I have that at my finger tips too.

Doug's reply: That would all seem to be reasonable for the study of any ancient document. Also for quite a few modern documents . . . maybe all of them, depending on just what one is trying to learn from them.

Eric's answer:
8. I'd also be careful to abide by the process referred to as Hermeneutics. (which generally includes points 1-7)

Doug's reply: There does not seem to be only one such process to abide by.

Eric's answer:
9. While I am busy doing this I'd spend time in prayer, meditation and contemplation to focus my mind.

Doug's reply: I suppose I would, too, if I were religious.

Eric's answer:
10. Finally, I'd present a few ideas for discussion and wait for a response.

Doug's reply: My main idea about the Acts of the Apostles is that it is a work of fiction composed by an unknown person, and probably redacted by at least one other unknown person, sometime during the second century CE. Would you like to respond to that?

Eric's reply: I'll need some time to ponder your answers.

Peace,
headheart

[headheart]

Doug's question restated by Eric:
What do I mean by 'explore some of the ideas expressed in the passage'?

Eric's answer:
2. Read it in the same way that I would read the front page article of any Newspaper. (except "The Sun")

Doug's reply: I have no idea how you read newspapers. I know how I read them. I cannot think of a reason to read an ancient religious document the same way.

This might help you to understand my second point 'Read it in the same way that I would read the front page article of any Newspaper' with regard to what I mean by 'explore some of the ideas expressed in the passage:

Take for instance today's news at The Gaurdian:

Heading: Chen Guangcheng has left China for US, say airport staff

Subheading: Chinese activist's baggage was checked on to flight which departed for Newark, New Jersey

The first few stanzas:

'Chen Guangcheng, the blind Chinese activist whose escape from a rural village set off a diplomatic tussle between Beijing and Washington, has left China on a flight to the United States, according to airport staff.

A woman at the United Airlines counter at Beijing airport told Reuters that Chen's luggage was checked in for the flight to Newark, New Jersey, but he was not seen by reporters before the flight departed at 0950 GMT.

Earlier, Chen told the Associated Press that he had left hospital and was at the Beijing airport. He said his wife and two children were with him but they did not yet have their passports. Also with him were hospital and border control staff.

Chen escaped illegal house arrest in his rural town last month and sought the protection of US diplomats. He had been awaiting permission to travel to the US to study.

The US state department has said US visas for Chen, his wife and children are ready for them to travel to America.'

(read more)

'It is interesting to note that many people will read an article in the newspaper from beginning to end and interpret it on the basis of the normative meanings of the words, within the context, keeping in mind the who, what, why, where and when of it and the rules of logic so as to discover what the writer is actually saying. But give that person a Bible and he/she will most likely trash this proven method of interpretation ....' Bob Evans

Now let's read the equal quantity or stanzas from the text we've not yet agreed to explore: (which just happens to be the entire text)

Acts 17:16-34
New International Version (NIV)
To Listen

In Athens

16 While Paul was waiting for them in Athens, he was greatly distressed to see that the city was full of idols. 17 So he reasoned in the synagogue with both Jews and God-fearing Greeks, as well as in the marketplace day by day with those who happened to be there. 18 A group of Epicurean and Stoic philosophers began to debate with him. Some of them asked, “What is this babbler trying to say?” Others remarked, “He seems to be advocating foreign gods.” They said this because Paul was preaching the good news about Jesus and the resurrection. 19 Then they took him and brought him to a meeting of the Areopagus, where they said to him, “May we know what this new teaching is that you are presenting? 20 You are bringing some strange ideas to our ears, and we would like to know what they mean.” 21 (All the Athenians and the foreigners who lived there spent their time doing nothing but talking about and listening to the latest ideas.)

22 Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: “People of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. 23 For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: to an unknown god. So you are ignorant of the very thing you worship —and this is what I am going to proclaim to you.

24 “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28 ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ (a) As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’ (b)

29 “Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by human design and skill. 30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

32 When they heard about the resurrection of the dead, some of them sneered, but others said, “We want to hear you again on this subject.” 33 At that, Paul left the Council. 34 Some of the people became followers of Paul and believed. Among them was Dionysius, a member of the Areopagus, also a woman named Damaris, and a number of others.

Footnotes:
(a) Acts 17:28 From the Cretan philosopher Epimenides
(b) Acts 17:28 From the Cilician Stoic philosopher Aratus

Peace,
headheart

[headheart]

While we are thinking about this (post 145) let's add the following sub-section (a) to point 2:

Eric's answer:
2. Read it in the same way that I would read the front page article of any Newspaper. (except "The Sun")

Doug's reply: I have no idea how you read newspapers. I know how I read them. I cannot think of a reason to read an ancient religious document the same way.

Eric's reply: (post 145)

=====================================================

Sub-sections:

a. Inductive rather than Deductive Reasoning is required
b.
c.
d.
e.

Peace,
headheart

[headheart]

Doug's question restated by Eric:
What do I mean by 'explore some of the ideas expressed in the passage'?

Eric's answer:
9. While I am busy doing this I'd spend time in prayer, meditation and contemplation to focus my mind.

Doug's reply: I suppose I would, too, if I were religious.

This is often a most neglected practice and daresay adds a very significant part of how one may interpret sub-section (b):

=====================================================

Sub-sections: ( Post 146 )

a. Inductive rather than Deductive Reasoning is required
b. as led by the Holy Spirit
c.
d.
e.

=====================================================

Though a person may be able to learn Klingon or become a member a drone in the Borg army unless one opens up to G-d one is wasting one's time with the Christian sacred texts, no matter how inspired some may insist they are or how learned one may be. Daresay the primary point of this thread and the reason behind my earlier comments to you with regard to prayer.

Though one can certainly practice Transcendental Meditation without being religious, I am sure that based on your statement you are well aware what I mean by prayer, meditation and contemplation. So, rather than dilly-dally I am going to direct you to a series of reads on a blog I put together covering this subject and hopefully there might be something of value for you as you consider the possibility of our exploration of Acts 17.

I've met such strong opposition from Christians with regard to prayer, meditation and contemplation as the first step to knowing G-d referring to it as nothing to do with Christianity and using words such as vague or New Age and so I posted up some ideas to the internet for those who might be tired of being told about G-d but not how one might know G-d: (Don't be put off by SHIVA, for the pages cover a wide cross-section of views) SHIVA and then SHIVA (Part 2 – TRIMURTI ) SHIVA (Part 3 – Brahma) -> SHIVA (Part 4 – THE INCARNATIONS OF LORD VISHNU ) -> SHIVA (Part 5a – Meditation) -> SHIVA (Part 5b – Meditation) , SHIVA (Part 5c – Meditation) , SHIVA (Part 5d – Meditation) , SHIVA (Part 5e – Meditation) , SHIVA (Part 5f – Meditation) , The Influence of Classical Ideas in the Humanities



Peace,
headheart

[Doug Shaver]

I have no idea how you read newspapers. I know how I read them. I cannot think of a reason to read an ancient religious document the same way.

This might help you to understand my second point 'Read it in the same way that I would read the front page article of any Newspaper' with regard to what I mean by 'explore some of the ideas expressed in the passage:
. . . . .
'It is interesting to note that many people will read an article in the newspaper from beginning to end and interpret it on the basis of the normative meanings of the words, within the context, keeping in mind the who, what, why, where and when of it and the rules of logic so as to discover what the writer is actually saying. But give that person a Bible and he/she will most likely trash this proven method of interpretation ....' Bob Evans

You have not told me how you read newspapers. Nor have you told me how you think I should read newspapers. You have told me how Bob Evans thinks "many people" read newspapers.

I could argue with the terminology Evans uses to make his point, but that would be an unnecessary diversion. When I'm reading a narrative qua narrative (as opposed to, say, poetry or philosophy), whether it's in a newspaper or an ancient religious book, and some asks me, "What does it say?" then I'm probably going to use the same methodology to derive my answer regardless of the source. But if they then ask me, "Do you believe what it says?" that's a different matter entirely.

And, just by the way, I read lots of stuff in newspapers without believing it.

[Doug Shaver]

unless one opens up to G-d one is wasting one's time with the Christian sacred texts, no matter how inspired some may insist they are or how learned one may be.

At one time in my life, I was as open to God as anyone can be while I was reading the Bible.

Your comment about wasting time presupposes that the only legitimate reason for studying the Bible is whatever reason you yourself have for studying it.

And, your disparagement of "how learned one may be" is duly noted.

[Doug Shaver]

I am sure that based on your statement you are well aware what I mean by prayer, meditation and contemplation.

I'm assuming that you mean approximately what most other people mean by them. And, I think I got a good idea of what most people mean during my 15 years attending a variety of Christian churches and 10 years of active involvement with Alcoholics Anonymous.