Thoughts on Gen. 3:5

[ttruscott]

Gen 3;5: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Knowledge right from wrong, good from evil is the base of all religious maturity and perfection as per:

Hebrews 5:14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil,

1Kings 3:9 So give your servant a discerning heart to govern your people and to distinguish between right and wrong.
and
Isaiah 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.


No one has ever rationally explained to me how knowing the difference between good and evil is bad.


Gen 3;5: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

We are to become like Jesus and emulate the Christ to fulfill HIS plan for us as per:
Colossians 3:8-17, Ephesians 4:11-24: (Esp: 15 Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ.)

1 Peter 1:15-16, "But as he which hath called you is holy so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; because it is written, 'be ye holy; for I am holy'."

Romans 8: 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

2 Corinthians 3:18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate[a] the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

1 John 3:2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears,[a] we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.


How does "ye shall be as gods" as a bad thing, reconcile with our becoming like Christ?

No one has ever rationally explained to me how becoming like GOD is bad.

Gen 3:5 [For] God 430 [doth] know 3045 [that in the] day 3117 ye eat 398 [thereof, then your] eyes 5869 [shall be] opened 6491 , [and ye shall be as] gods 430, knowing 3045 good 2896 and evil 7451.

Lets take out the words added to make the English flow...

Gen 3:5 God 430 knows 3045 day 3117 eat 398 eyes 5869 opened 6491, gods 430, knowing 3045 good 2896 evil 7451.

There certainly seems to be room here for an interpretation that does not contradict the verses previously mentioned...

Peace to all, Ted

[granpa]

you are supposed to read between the lines.

[RBerman]

Gen 3;5: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Knowledge right from wrong, good from evil is the base of all religious maturity and perfection as per:

Hebrews 5:14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil,

1Kings 3:9 So give your servant a discerning heart to govern your people and to distinguish between right and wrong.
and
Isaiah 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.


No one has ever rationally explained to me how knowing the difference between good and evil is bad.

Gen 3;5: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

This isn't an area in which the Bible says a whole lot, so we can't say for sure. BUt it may be that God was reserving the Tree of Knowledge for sometime in the future. Also, "knowledge" can mean "experience." Adam may have known the difference between good and evil, but he had not experienced doing evil until he sinned in eating the fruit.

Gen 3:5 [For] God 430 [doth] know 3045 [that in the] day 3117 ye eat 398 [thereof, then your] eyes 5869 [shall be] opened 6491 , [and ye shall be as] gods 430, knowing 3045 good 2896 and evil 7451.

Lets take out the words added to make the English flow...

Gen 3:5 God 430 knows 3045 day 3117 eat 398 eyes 5869 opened 6491, gods 430, knowing 3045 good 2896 evil 7451.

There certainly seems to be room here for an interpretation that does not contradict the verses previously mentioned.

Interlinear is a lousy way to study the Bible unless you're well versed in the culture, grammar, and vocabulary of the original language.

[Phat8594]

How does "ye shall be as gods" as a bad thing, reconcile with our becoming like Christ?

No one has ever rationally explained to me how becoming like GOD is bad.

Lets look at the text first:

4 But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

The issue is not them becoming Christ like....clearly.....cause that's not the problem.

The problem is disobeying God and usurping the power to decide right and wrong for oneself, rather than relying on God for such things. That is what Adam and Eve did by eating the fruit.

There are clearly things that we are to do, to become more "Christ like"...but there are even more things that we leave to God, because it is His place and not ours.


Just as an example: God is to be worshipped. Should you become "like God" in this respect and seek to be worshipped? Of course not!


The point is that we need to focus on how to worship, obey, praise, and bring glory to (etc. etc.) God rather than trying to be God....cause we aren't God.

[theblueprint_Ni]

It's one thing to know and it's another thing to know. Adam knew his wife, Eve, the moment God placed her in front of him (she wasn't hidden in the bushes until their "wedding night"), but he didn't know her until they consummated the marriage. Adam and Eve already knew good and evil when God delivered to them the law of the garden of Eden, specifically the prohibition against eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Like the act of consummation, eating of the tree gave them intimate knowledge of evil--destructive and unprofitable knowledge. If you know God's law, you know good and evil in the perfect way it ought to be known. Anything more is to question God, which is exactly what took place between Eve and the Serpent.

"Becoming like God" is nothing more than defining good and evil for yourself--a sole prerogative of God--but with the nasty repercussions of being judged by the only true God. Satan conveniently left that part out. When God afterward said "they have become like us", it's because God knows evil intimately by nature of His omnipotence, or maybe it's because they had become like God due to the fact that they've experienced the Divine prerogative of defining evil. In either case, the human race was not well served by their choice. In fact, the only reason we have the Bible is because of what they did. We wouldn't need to be aware of God's redemptive plan if they hadn't eaten of its fruit.

[ttruscott]

Lets look at the text first:



The issue is not them becoming Christ like....clearly.....cause that's not the problem.

The problem is disobeying God and usurping the power to decide right and wrong for oneself, rather than relying on God for such things. That is what Adam and Eve did by eating the fruit.

Yes, they do look like similar ideas but with different ways to try to get there:

know the difference between good and evil so as to be able to always choose holiness by GOD's sanctification or to eat the fruit to achieve this even though it was forbidden..

But that implies to me that they
- knew they needed sanctification
- the serpent was telling them the truth about the effects of the tree but not about the effects of their disobedience
- Eve thought that the serpent was her guru and Adam thought Eve was his spiritual helpmeet
- SO, rather than trying to usurp GOD and become GOD from overweening ambition, she may have been trying to become GOD like / Christ like and perfectly good in all things but was beguiled about the proper method.

There are clearly things that we are to do, to become more "Christ like"...but there are even more things that we leave to God, because it is His place and not ours. Just as an example: God is to be worshipped. Should you become "like God" in this respect and seek to be worshipped? Of course not!
The point is that we need to focus on how to worship, obey, praise, and bring glory to (etc. etc.) God rather than trying to be God....cause we aren't God.

Surely becoming Christ like in the Spirit will take care of all these things so we are not led astray by a sinful definition of Christ like...

Peace, Ted

[onefour1]

the LDS position on this is that God in all his foreknowledge knew that Adam and Eve in their innocent state would choose to partake of the forbidden fruit. God knew this before he ever placed them on this earth. Why did he then place them in the garden knowing full well that they would partake of the forbidden fruit? It was because he wanted it. God, the father of our spirits, wants his children to become just like himself. Thus Jesus taught, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your father in heaven is perfect." Jesus is our example of how we ought to live in order to become the sons of God and be join heirs with him in receiving all that the Father has. Knowing good from evil and choosing the good is what God wants us to do. God is all knowing and know all good and evil things. However, he is a perfectly good being because he chooses the good over the evil. He wants us to become just like him. We are here to learn to choose good over evil and emulate the Christ. Sure we are going to slip up now and then, but God wants us to keep on trying and has provided a way that we can overcome sin, ie through the blood of the Lamb. All we have to do is repent. Is it not the greatest love that the Father can give is to provide a way for his children to be just like himself? The LDS position is just that. That God has provided a way for his children to become just like him. Thus Jesus taught:

John 17:20-23
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Imagine that! The Father has loved us even as he has loved Jesus!! He wants us to be one even as they are one! I love these verses.

[ttruscott]

Knowing good from evil and choosing the good is what God wants us to do. God is all knowing and know all good and evil things. However, he is a perfectly good being because he chooses the good over the evil. He wants us to become just like him.

I have been cursed as anathema by an LDS elder for my faith in the self revealed Holy Spirit so I'm not a good listener but I wonder if their falling into sin was to to learn what GOD wanted them to learn (if I got you right) why were they and the earth cursed? And if they sinned, why weren't they mentioned as damned?

Peace, Ted

[onefour1]

I have been cursed as anathema by an LDS elder for my faith in the self revealed Holy Spirit so I'm not a good listener but I wonder if their falling into sin was to to learn what GOD wanted them to learn (if I got you right) why were they and the earth cursed? And if they sinned, why weren't they mentioned as damned?

Peace, Ted

I believe the fall and the conditions of it were necessary for the growth of his children. The experiences of this fallen state are necessary for us to experience death, pain, suffering, injustice, temptation, etc and learn from them. Also to learn to become strong in our resistence to evil.

[ttruscott]

I believe the fall and the conditions of it were necessary for the growth of his children. The experiences of this fallen state are necessary for us to experience death, pain, suffering, injustice, temptation, etc and learn from them. Also to learn to become strong in our resistence to evil.

We posit that in our pre-earth life we had our true free will choices that self created our eternal characters in realtionship with GOD, some to election, some not, and that

we were created perfect and if we had never chosen sin by true free will choice there was nothing we needed to learn from sin. Once an elect sinned by true free will choice over the issue of the damnation of the non-elect, then and only then in application to them do I agree with your note.

[It is assumed that there is no true free will on earth...]

I can't agree that GOD created sinners to teach them a lesson - He created free will and some of HIS elect chose to sin and then HE created the earth as a place for them to inhabit a human body to learn the lessons provided by suffering.

Peace, Ted

[onefour1]

We posit that in our pre-earth life we had our true free will choices that self created our eternal characters in realtionship with GOD, some to election, some not, and that

we were created perfect and if we had never chosen sin by true free will choice there was nothing we needed to learn from sin. Once an elect sinned by true free will choice over the issue of the damnation of the non-elect, then and only then in application to them do I agree with your note.

[It is assumed that there is no true free will on earth...]

I can't agree that GOD created sinners to teach them a lesson - He created free will and some of HIS elect chose to sin and then HE created the earth as a place for them to inhabit a human body to learn the lessons provided by suffering.

Peace, Ted

In LDS thought, a part of man is self existent. The concept of creating something from nothing or exnihilo creation is not believed. This part of man that is self existent is known as intelligence in LDS scripture. Because God could not create the intelligence of man from nothing but only took those intelligences and gave them a spirit and then a body made from matter that already existed eternally, man in his created state is not perfect. Because of this, it was necessary that God provide a means that man could progress from one state to another. Thus this mortal life became a part of the plan of progression to allow God's spirit children to advance. Christ was chosen before the foundation of this earth to be Savior of mankind. God planned it all from the beginning.

[ttruscott]

In LDS thought, a part of man is self existent. The concept of creating something from nothing or exnihilo creation is not believed. This part of man that is self existent is known as intelligence in LDS scripture. Because God could not create the intelligence of man from nothing but only took those intelligences and gave them a spirit and then a body made from matter that already existed eternally, man in his created state is not perfect. Because of this, it was necessary that God provide a means that man could progress from one state to another. Thus this mortal life became a part of the plan of progression to allow God's spirit children to advance. Christ was chosen before the foundation of this earth to be Savior of mankind. God planned it all from the beginning.

Does "a part of man is self existent" mean eternally existant? The concept implies to me that a part of man is self created and that is silly so I don't get it.

Our pre-existence does not preclude a divine creation ex nihilo which fits my understanding well enough as I don't need an eternal intelligence to further / support any other doctrine...in the fine old manner of "if it ain't broke, don't try to fix it," :) The logic based on the eternal intelligence being the basis for an imperferct body and soul is stated, not proven.

Creating an imperfect being does not fit with GOD's attributes as I know them and is the reason I dismiss Adamic sin as a foolishness - made perfect, all our imperfections came from a true free will choice to sin on our own part, no one else's, GOD nor Adam.

Peace, Ted

[onefour1]

Does "a part of man is self existent" mean eternally existant? The concept implies to me that a part of man is self created and that is silly so I don't get it.

Our pre-existence does not preclude a divine creation ex nihilo which fits my understanding well enough as I don't need an eternal intelligence to further / support any other doctrine...in the fine old manner of "if it ain't broke, don't try to fix it," :) The logic based on the eternal intelligence being the basis for an imperferct body and soul is stated, not proven.

Creating an imperfect being does not fit with GOD's attributes as I know them and is the reason I dismiss Adamic sin as a foolishness - made perfect, all our imperfections came from a true free will choice to sin on our own part, no one else's, GOD nor Adam.

Peace, Ted

Actually all of man is self existent because the elements are eternal as well. By self existent I mean that our intelligence has always existed and the matter that was organized to form our spirits and bodies are eternal as well. They have existed for ever and ever. I don't beleieve that the word create in the bible carries the meaning of being created from nothing. I believe it simply means that God took intelligence and matter and created our spirits. I believe this was through the process of procreation.

If man was perfect before the fall, then why did he fall? God is a perfect being and he doesn't fall. If we were perfect like God, then we shouldn't have fallen. Obviously man was flawed and not perfect. A being who is perfect would have a perfect understanding of good and evil and would know better than to choose evil. Another question is that if we were perfect before Adam fell, then why were the rest of consigned to come into a fallen state? Adam was the one who partook of the forbidden fruit, why did I have to be born into a fallen mortal state because of his transgression? Why would God place two innocent beings who lack a knowledge of good and evil into a place where they would be tempted to become like the one they love most, ie God, knowing full well the outcome from the beginning. Surely if God did not want Adam and Eve to fall, and foreknowing that they would fall, he would not have placed those perfect beings in such a situation. But the truth is that he did foreknow and decided to place them in that situation anyway. Why didn't he avoid it? Could it not be that God wanted Adam and Eve to fall? If not, then why would he place them in the way of temptation knowing beforehand that they would fall? God chose Christ before the foundation of this earth to be a Savior. He therefore knew that man would need a Savior and that man would fall. Yet he placed them in harms way anyway. Knowing that Adam and Eve would fall, God still went ahead with putting the two in the position where he knew they would fall. It is obvious to me that God wanted it to happen.

We were imperfect beings to begin with. God is not at fault for our lack of perfection. He is only there to help us improve our lot in our eternal existence. Why didn't God make us perfect? Because he couldn't. He did not have the power to create our intelligence because our intelligence is self existent. He organized our beings, ie created us out of something already in existence. But that intelligence that has always existed can only progress as fast as it is willing to progress. We are all at differing states in our quest for perfection. This earth life is a place where we gain experience that will help further our progression toward perfection. But free will is an essential component of reaching perfection. This can be a two edge sword because with free will, we can choose evil over good. But there is no other way. Perfection only comes through free will.

[ttruscott]

...If man was perfect before the fall, then why did he fall? God is a perfect being and he doesn't fall. If we were perfect like God, then we shouldn't have fallen. Obviously man was flawed and not perfect. ...

If I take the time to answer this with a lecture on free will, I suspect it will be wasted as you seem educated enough to know the answer by now.

Thank you for sharing but I do not accept your argument and stopped reading your note until we get this point settled.

Peace to you, Ted

[onefour1]

If I take the time to answer this with a lecture on free will, I suspect it will be wasted as you seem educated enough to know the answer by now.

Thank you for sharing but I do not accept your argument and stopped reading your note until we get this point settled.

Peace to you, Ted

It is my understanding that both man and God have free will. The difference between us is that God has reached a state of knowledge, wisdom, and intelligence that he knows with a perfect knowledge that choosing wrong over right is destructive to oneself as well as others. Even though God has more free will to do things, he will never do evil because he is of the highest of characters possible. He does not believe in doing wrong and has a perfect knowledge that goodness is always the right thing to do. His being perfect makes it so that he always makes perfect choices. He always makes the right choice. Man has some of this in himself. Most people know and feel that murder is wrong and evil. They will go their entire lives without doing it and would never do it. It is against their belief and character to do such an evil. We are all on differing levels of righteousness in our existence. But we are not perfect like God. We need to continue in gaining knowledge, wisdom, understanding, etc. The more we come to understand the greatness of good and the wickedness of evil, we take on those principles of goodness into our belief and character. It will become part of our being. This earth life is for us to experience both good and bad so that we will know to choose the good. Some people never grasp this. They delight in doing evil. But that is the cost that occurs when God tries to do the ultimate good for his children. Free will is essential to his plan. No body makes God do good. He does it of his own free will. If we are to become like God, we too need to choose the good over the evil. But it is more than just choosing, it is coming to an understanding that goodness is the right thing to do and believing in it and incorporating it into our souls. We eventually get to a point where doing evil is abhorant and hateful to us. When we start experiencing the mighty change in our hearts and minds and accept God's will, only then are we on the right path in our lives. God knows we will make mistakes and has provided a means that we can repent and be forgiven. But my point with all this is that man was and is not yet perfect. And because man is self existent, other than being organized into his image, God could not create our minds to be perfect. This is a process in which our eternal intelligence progresses as fast as we are willing to do it.