Parents Must ‘Squash Like A Cockroach’ The Gay Out Of Kids

[JimL]

I think you'll find in a number of American churches that some pastors try to liven up or spice up their sermons by saying shocking or bewildering things that they don't often expect their audiences to take super seriously. Its usually a lot of hyperbole to make a point. They get a lot of this, I think, from Jesus' very colorful Semitic metaphors in the Gospels where he tells his disciples to do things like hate their family for his sake, or to cut their hands off, or pluck out their eyeballs if they offend them. These are figures of speech to convey deep or complete commitment, and/or Jesus' serious stance on righteous living. And I think probably most people who have pastors like this realize that what they're saying is hyperbole. We live in a culture now that needs fine print that says "don't try this at home" to make sure people understand to use a little common sense, but I'm assuming this pastor didn't exactly mean for parents to start literally beating up their children, and I'm also assuming most of his parishioners understood that without being told the fine print. I'm coming at this purely from my experience at different churches that have a "lively" message, so I could be off about this guy, but I read about this issue last week, and if memory serves, he did apologize for the way he stated his message, and didn't intend for it to be taken literally.

Of course, the Pastor didn't mean to literally give the 4 year old a good punch for being himself. Geesh, do you guys have to defend every idiocy just because it comes from a Christian Preacher?

[The Moonshield]

Oh, I'm sorry Darth, I don't recall God saying that "they must be put to death" unless they can buy their way out of it. Were those Gods words, or were his words amended some time later?

As I understand it, in ANE law, something like the payment of a court assessed monetary fine was the de facto punishment in the majority of cases, while legal references to executions were more hyperbolic in nature and were intended to be "a statement as to their view of the gravity of the offense" (Westbrook, “A History of Ancient Near Eastern Law”) as opposed to being a literal sentence to be carried out, with the exception of the most severe crimes, such as murder, where it is stated clearly that "you may not accept a ransom for the life of a murderer who is guilty of a capital crime..." (Number 35:31).

[JimL]

As I understand it, in ANE law, something like the payment of a court assessed monetary fine was the de facto punishment in the majority of cases, while legal references to executions were more hyperbolic in nature and were intended to be "a statement as to their view of the gravity of the offense" (Westbrook, “A History of Ancient Near Eastern Law”) as opposed to being a literal sentence to be carried out, with the exception of the most severe crimes, such as murder, where it is stated clearly that "you may not accept a ransom for the life of a murderer who is guilty of a capital crime..." (Number 35:31).

Yes, but we are talking about Gods law, according to Gods words, not about the ANE legal codes.

[Adrift]

Of course, the Pastor didn't mean to literally give the 4 year old a good punch for being himself. Geesh, do you guys have to defend every idiocy just because it comes from a Christian Preacher?

Im not defending him because he's a Christian, i just think its pretty clear that he was exaggerating for effect, but think what youd like.

[Darth Executor]

Yes, but we are talking about Gods law, according to Gods words, not about the ANE legal codes.

They are the same thing in this case.

[Cerebrum123]

I wasn't even considering the holy books from which an imam or pastor would justify their preaching. I don't think they're relevant to the issue. These are religious leaders giving commands to commit crimes with the assumption of agreement by their god.



Homophobia is analogous to racism or sexism, it has nothing to do with fear. It's a dumb name, but that's the name that's been established.

My point was that while you don't find this behavior condoned in the Bible, you do find it condoned in the Quran, and Imam's take advantage of the law of "abrogation". All they have to do is show that the violent verses that command the slaughtering of kafir were revealed later than the one's that have a "Golden Rule" type feel. To do this they only need to show some Islamic history. So while the behavior that this pastor was encouraging is not in the Bible, there is criminal behavior condoned in the Quran.

[One Bad Pig]

Of course, the Pastor didn't mean to literally give the 4 year old a good punch for being himself. Geesh, do you guys have to defend every idiocy just because it comes from a Christian Preacher?

4 year old? Pot, meet kettle.

[Soyeong]

Homophobia is analogous to racism or sexism, it has nothing to do with fear. It's a dumb name, but that's the name that's been established.

As far as I can tell, saying they are homophobic adds nothing to the meaning of simply saying they are anti-gay behavior and exists almost purely to be derogatory. Also, comparing homophobia to racism or sexism doesn't really help because they have been used incorrectly a vast majority of the time that I've seen them used as well. Yes, it is possible to disagree with Obama and not be racist. And yes, it is possible to note differences in genders and not be sexist. Amazing, isn't it?

[Vivian]

Im not defending him because he's a Christian, i just think its pretty clear that he was exaggerating for effect, but think what youd like.

Gosh, if he was not serious but simply exaggerating or joking around, this is worse! Prejudice pure and simple: getting everyone to start thinking that a child acting in a certain way needs to be slapped around, but it is ok to think that cause we really aren't going to do it! Do you guys realize just how sick all this is?

Such people thinking such things are the true murderers!

21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire.

Does anyone realize what harm is done to children, to society, when adults feel it is ok to have negative thoughts, judgments, based on generalizations and ignorance, but think it is ok, cause geeze, we are just joking for effect?

Sick Sick Sick. We need to stand up to the true murderers in this world. They are the ones who cause situations to rise up like kids in hoodies being murdered, cuz gee, all our jokes about black kids wearing hoodies being hoodlums are harmless! It is all in fun, we are just having fun making jokes or judging behaviors or clothing that we think odd. Or we are exaggerating to get peoples attention - if you see a black youth in a hoodie wandering around your neighbor you better be worried, cause you know what kind of people do such things! Or if you see a kid acting in a non gender specific way, you better be worried that they are going to grow up to be gay!

Don't be a wimp. Be a true follower of Christ and stand up against such evil talk. It is the spirit of the anti-Christ that places such judgments in our mind. Come on, Christ came 2000 years ago, and we are still committing the same sins which he confronted and condemned?

[Hamster]

Even if a metaphor or exaggeration, probably not a good idea. My family never knew I was gay but my father knew I wasn't interested in girls. He used to threaten me in order to start making me act 'like a man.' He'd constantly be lewd, even in public. He'd see a girl, make a comment about her body, and then ask me to describe my 'favorite part.' Sometimes he would see a girl or woman and tell me to go up to her and try to pick her up. He'd threaten me if I refused. Not saying the pastor is advocating this kind of behavior, but I think trying to "squash" someone's homosexual orientation isn't a good idea. All I did was end up resenting my father and feeling intense shame

If we assume homosexual behavior to be wrong then that makes homosexuality a disorder, not merely a bad habit

[Adrift]

Gosh, if he was not serious but simply exaggerating or joking around, this is worse! Prejudice pure and simple: getting everyone to start thinking that a child acting in a certain way needs to be slapped around, but it is ok to think that cause we really aren't going to do it! Do you guys realize just how sick all this is?

Such people thinking such things are the true murderers!

21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire.

So you realize what harm is done to children, to society, when adults feel it is ok to have negative thoughts, judgments about generalizations but think it is ok, cause geeze, we are just joking for effect?

Sick Sick Sick. We need to stand up to the true murderers in this world. They are the ones who cause situations to rise up like kids in hoodies being murdered, cuz gee, all our jokes about black kids wearing hoodies being hoodlums are harmless! It is all in fun, we are just having fun making jokes or judging behaviors or clothing that we think odd. Or we are exaggerating to get peoples attention - if you see a black youth in a hoodie wandering around your neighbor you better be worried, cause you know what kind of people do such things!

Don't be a wimp. Be a true follower of Christ and stand up against such evil talk.

Meh. I think everyone's making a mountain out of a molehill. Though the pastor's words were obviously poorly chosen, I'm assuming all he meant from his sermon was something along the lines of a Barney Fife, "Andy, you gotta nip it in the bud!" sort of thing. I don't think any of us knew anything about this pastor before this particular quote surfaced, and seeing as he's since apologized for the words he used to convey his meaning, I'm assuming he's not the evil monster he's being made out as. Then again, I personally have a habit of giving most strangers a fair shake, and not jumping up and down when I hear sensationalist headlines.

[Adrift]

Even if a metaphor or exaggeration, probably not a good idea. My family never knew I was gay but my father knew I wasn't interested in girls. He used to threaten me in order to start making me act 'like a man.' He'd constantly be lewd, even in public. He'd see a girl, make a comment about her body, and then ask me to describe my 'favorite part.' Sometimes he would see a girl or woman and tell me to go up to her and try to pick her up. He'd threaten me if I refused. Not saying the pastor is advocating this kind of behavior, but I think trying to "squash" someone's homosexual orientation isn't a good idea. All I did was end up resenting my father and feeling intense shame

If we assume homosexual behavior to be wrong then that makes homosexuality a disorder, not merely a bad habit

Assuming sexual preference is mostly environmental (and last I looked, there's some pretty good research that indicates that it is) I think there are positive ways for parents to deal with this issue that doesn't involve beating their children, forcing them to be lewd, or making them feel like weirdos. I think parents that love God, that show strong love and commitment to one another, that show unconditional love towards their children, that are not afraid of asserting their familial roles in the household etc. are probably providing such an environment. I also think that helping children understand Biblical concepts of gender and sexuality is helpful as well. We live in an age where anything goes, and perversion and sexual confusion is the norm in popular media, and the culture at large. Its no wonder so many people grow up today confused about who they are and what to think. Though Christians live in this world, we are not to be conformed to this world, we are instructed to put off the former manner of life that has been corrupted by deceitful desires, and be transformed, (putting on the new self) by the renewing of the spirit of our mind. And if we are instructed to renew our minds, then surely God has given us the ability to do so, but not by our own doing, but with the help of the Holy Spirit. Easier said than done, no doubt, but as Paul writes, ..."do not lose heart. Though our outer self is wasting away, our inner self is being renewed day by day." I speak from experience.

[theblueprint_Ni]

As I understand it, in ANE law, something like the payment of a court assessed monetary fine was the de facto punishment in the majority of cases, while legal references to executions were more hyperbolic in nature and were intended to be "a statement as to their view of the gravity of the offense" (Westbrook, “A History of Ancient Near Eastern Law”) as opposed to being a literal sentence to be carried out, with the exception of the most severe crimes, such as murder, where it is stated clearly that "you may not accept a ransom for the life of a murderer who is guilty of a capital crime..." (Number 35:31).

But that might also be speaking to the purity of the court, as if to say "don't you dare corrupt this law with a ransom" rather than to imply that many other capital offenses were merely metaphorical devices used to emphasize the seriousness of the crime. In fact, I would think that with the example of the boy who blasphemed God (Lev.24:10) and the man who picked up sticks on the Sabbath (Num.15:32), both capital offenses and both inquired and prophetically answered by God to receive death by stoning are evidences that in every instance of a said capital offense is quite literally a capital offense. Also, some of the capital offenses conveyed by Moses were closed with the phrase "their blood be upon them" or "surely be put to death"; sodomy also being included in that list.

[Psychic Missile]

Even if he didn't mean to advocate child abuse, he still thinks gender roles are objective, women are objects, and it's wrong to be a homosexual, so he's pretty reprehensible regardless.

My point was that while you don't find this behavior condoned in the Bible, you do find it condoned in the Quran, and Imam's take advantage of the law of "abrogation". All they have to do is show that the violent verses that command the slaughtering of kafir were revealed later than the one's that have a "Golden Rule" type feel. To do this they only need to show some Islamic history. So while the behavior that this pastor was encouraging is not in the Bible, there is criminal behavior condoned in the Quran.

I know what you're saying, but how does that change anything IRT what I said?

As far as I can tell, saying they are homophobic adds nothing to the meaning of simply saying they are anti-gay behavior and exists almost purely to be derogatory. Also, comparing homophobia to racism or sexism doesn't really help because they have been used incorrectly a vast majority of the time that I've seen them used as well. Yes, it is possible to disagree with Obama and not be racist. And yes, it is possible to note differences in genders and not be sexist. Amazing, isn't it?

Saying they are homophobic IS saying they taking part in anti-gay behavior. I'm not talking about how they're used, I'm talking about what they mean.